End of the square vs staggered
Community Organizer
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 31,070
Likes: 566
Ditto!
How the car behaves in the last 10% of its performance window is very different then the bottom 90%, its the only part that matters if your trying to go fast. How easy you can keep and run the car in that top % is going to make a difference over the span of a lapping day or event.
How the car behaves in the last 10% of its performance window is very different then the bottom 90%, its the only part that matters if your trying to go fast. How easy you can keep and run the car in that top % is going to make a difference over the span of a lapping day or event.
Last edited by s2000Junky; Oct 7, 2018 at 05:44 PM.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,092
Likes: 839
I'll quote myself again...
For this chassis with the F20/22C in N/A form, square is better once you know how to drive. The chassis is 18 years old now. It's pretty clear what's fast and what isn't.
Where competition, prizes, and contingency is concerned, square wins - period. It isn't magic or personal preference. It's a clock with numbers...
For this chassis with the F20/22C in N/A form, square is better once you know how to drive. The chassis is 18 years old now. It's pretty clear what's fast and what isn't.
Where competition, prizes, and contingency is concerned, square wins - period. It isn't magic or personal preference. It's a clock with numbers...
Once you put a GT wing on it, staggered ceases to be faster.
Front grip becomes the limitation.
Pretty much all of the top level time attack S2000s are running square setups with GT wings.
-Arvou s2k is on 295 square.
-All of the last Evasive time attack builds have been square setups, whether NA or supercharger.
Also, because of the 49/51 weight distribution, a square setup balanced with aero makes the best use of grip on both ends.
If staggered was faster, i'm sure they would run staggered. As it is, a staggered setup with a GT wing is going to be understeer all day, followed by snap oversteer.
The other thing is tire availability. Compound will always beat width and contact patch.
I'm certain that a 255 square RE-71R or A052 setup with a GT-wing is going to be faster than a wing-less 255/315 NT-05 setup - that's a lot of extra unsprung weight and rolling resistance on an inferior tire compound. I would venture to say that even a wing-less 17x10 255 A052 square setup will be faster around a road course than a 255/315 NT-05 setup. The newer tire compounds are just that good.
Back in the day, I believe some data was collected to say that:
-RS3s were 1 second faster than NT-05
-NT-01 was ~1.5 second faster than RS3
-RC1 is about equal to 0.2 second faster than NT-01 in cooler weather
-Fresh RE-71r is faster than RC1 and NT-01 by about 0.2 to 0.5 seconds
-All at Buttonwillow CW13 with 255 square setups with GT-wings
-and finally, some other data out there is saying A052 (also a BS TW200 tire) is slightly faster than RE-71R
Everything else being equal (even aero), I don't think an extra 65mm of rear tread contact is going to over come ~3.5 seconds of newer tire compound advantage...
Front grip becomes the limitation.
Pretty much all of the top level time attack S2000s are running square setups with GT wings.
-Arvou s2k is on 295 square.
-All of the last Evasive time attack builds have been square setups, whether NA or supercharger.
Also, because of the 49/51 weight distribution, a square setup balanced with aero makes the best use of grip on both ends.
If staggered was faster, i'm sure they would run staggered. As it is, a staggered setup with a GT wing is going to be understeer all day, followed by snap oversteer.
The other thing is tire availability. Compound will always beat width and contact patch.
I'm certain that a 255 square RE-71R or A052 setup with a GT-wing is going to be faster than a wing-less 255/315 NT-05 setup - that's a lot of extra unsprung weight and rolling resistance on an inferior tire compound. I would venture to say that even a wing-less 17x10 255 A052 square setup will be faster around a road course than a 255/315 NT-05 setup. The newer tire compounds are just that good.
Back in the day, I believe some data was collected to say that:
-RS3s were 1 second faster than NT-05
-NT-01 was ~1.5 second faster than RS3
-RC1 is about equal to 0.2 second faster than NT-01 in cooler weather
-Fresh RE-71r is faster than RC1 and NT-01 by about 0.2 to 0.5 seconds
-All at Buttonwillow CW13 with 255 square setups with GT-wings
-and finally, some other data out there is saying A052 (also a BS TW200 tire) is slightly faster than RE-71R
Everything else being equal (even aero), I don't think an extra 65mm of rear tread contact is going to over come ~3.5 seconds of newer tire compound advantage...
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,730
Likes: 56
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 547
Likes: 53
From: Milwaukee, WI
This post is kinda confusing to me.
Can you tell me what full aero means? Just wing and splitter? Multi-element wing? Ducted fenders? Hard top? Diffuser? Flat floor?
Can you tell us exactly what you changed? Which tire and size combo you went from and to? I'm failing to see how adding front tire, and causing more oversteer, fixed your corner entry oversteer problem.
What size staggered RE's? What track? What were your previous times?
Can you tell me what full aero means? Just wing and splitter? Multi-element wing? Ducted fenders? Hard top? Diffuser? Flat floor?
Well I finally went square and no question the car is better balanced. The oversteer is more, but the car is so much better balanced. So for me the debate is over square is most certainly better for this car.
[I removed some stuff here]
And it totally fixed this issue:
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-ra...steer-1187907/
[I removed some stuff here]
And it totally fixed this issue:
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-ra...steer-1187907/
What size staggered RE's? What track? What were your previous times?
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,318
Likes: 125
From: Scottsdale, Az
I wonder if it relates to how these cars will snap to oversteer if you push the front, add more angle anyway because yolo racecar, and the front grips up all at once real quick. I think he will find that happening again as he gets more used to the new setup.
Last edited by Chibo; Oct 8, 2018 at 10:19 AM.
Community Organizer
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 31,070
Likes: 566
You might need to do it a 3rd time, because apparently its not that clear. I think there probably are some diminishing returns on tire width, but 255 is not it with this car, and since that's all you can reasonably squeeze up front, logic says limiting yourself to a 255 in the rear of the car to run "square" isn't the all out best performing option. We are talking unlimited set up here. Serves no point in talking what's best within a certain sanctioned rule based class, which some people tend to forget. I don't care what works best within a class. I look at how to maximize the performance threshold of the car period.
Community Organizer
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 31,070
Likes: 566
Common driver error right there. Not the set ups fault.