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Is that comment directed specifically at the 2JZ engine or the Supra in general? I understand the car as a whole not being all that great by todays standards, but I thought the engine was good? what kinda issues did you see with the engine in a road race environment?
Really both.
The engines have an aggressively over-powered oil pump and undersized head oil drains. A few hours of endurance racing at high revs results in all the sump contents being migrated into the valve covers where it sweats and pisses everywhere, right before it spins bearings. These same qualities make it a phenomenally reliable street car.Talking with some of the eminent supra engine builders in the country confirmed this as they tried to support a few IS300 race cars that experienced the same engine issues. Dry sump and lots of machine work seems to be needed to remedy. But at LEAST motors are getting hard to find AND they are expensive, so you've got that going for you when you blow one up....
Its under-tired and over weight compared to more modern chassis and chassis spares have become prohibitively expensive due to both age and hype. Blow up a transmission? 3k-4.5k...used. Versus a used S2K trans for $600. Spare spindles, knuckles, etc are all issues. Sourcing parts at a destination racetrack to try and salvage a weekend is basically a no-go.
I will admit its fun to drive though, everybody likes to see the big girls dance but in exhibition only.
The engines have an aggressively over-powered oil pump and undersized head oil drains. A few hours of endurance racing at high revs results in all the sump contents being migrated into the valve covers where it sweats and pisses everywhere, right before it spins bearings. These same qualities make it a phenomenally reliable street car.Talking with some of the eminent supra engine builders in the country confirmed this as they tried to support a few IS300 race cars that experienced the same engine issues. Dry sump and lots of machine work seems to be needed to remedy. But at LEAST motors are getting hard to find AND they are expensive, so you've got that going for you when you blow one up....
Its under-tired and over weight compared to more modern chassis and chassis spares have become prohibitively expensive due to both age and hype. Blow up a transmission? 3k-4.5k...used. Versus a used S2K trans for $600. Spare spindles, knuckles, etc are all issues. Sourcing parts at a destination racetrack to try and salvage a weekend is basically a no-go.
I will admit its fun to drive though, everybody likes to see the big girls dance but in exhibition only.
Isn't possible to open up the head drains or adding external drain back hoses? I've been told, as expected, they pressurize the crankcase and big breather kits out the valve covers are apparently common. I'm surprised someone didn't make a complete, modestly priced dry sump for it.
However, while MkIV TT supras have gotten to the price of a Cayman, maybe even a Cayman S, the non-turbos are about $30k. As far as the engines go, JDM 2JZ-GTE VVTi engines are under $3k. How many do you want?
Like the S2000, the tires are a big problem. The original sizes were 235/45-17 front, 255/40-17 rear. 265/35-18 front, 295/30-18 rear was a common upgrade. However, now any large tires in 17" sizes are non-existent, and in the 18" sizes are few and not new designs like the P4S or even the PSS. People have gotten as wide as 315/30-18 under the OEM rear fender, but now those are n't readily available. The OEM sizes, like the S2000, are about 25" tall. The high performance new tires, like the 305/30-19 tires on the Mustang PP2, are over 26" tall.
The Supra and the RX-7 will both have legs that continue into the collector car market because they are attractive. They were hot cars when current 35-40 year olds were teenagers. My guess is they may peak in value as that age group gets around 60 and starts looking for the hot cars of their youth. By then the herd will have thinned a bit more. On my list for when I get old is a 1970 Boss 302 (my first car) and a Lotus Elan S4 which I had a few years later (I had a '68, but I'm not picky, and may go for an S2 or S3 to get rid of the frame around the window).
The engines have an aggressively over-powered oil pump and undersized head oil drains. A few hours of endurance racing at high revs results in all the sump contents being migrated into the valve covers where it sweats and pisses everywhere, right before it spins bearings. These same qualities make it a phenomenally reliable street car.Talking with some of the eminent supra engine builders in the country confirmed this as they tried to support a few IS300 race cars that experienced the same engine issues. Dry sump and lots of machine work seems to be needed to remedy. But at LEAST motors are getting hard to find AND they are expensive, so you've got that going for you when you blow one up....
Its under-tired and over weight compared to more modern chassis and chassis spares have become prohibitively expensive due to both age and hype. Blow up a transmission? 3k-4.5k...used. Versus a used S2K trans for $600. Spare spindles, knuckles, etc are all issues. Sourcing parts at a destination racetrack to try and salvage a weekend is basically a no-go.
I will admit its fun to drive though, everybody likes to see the big girls dance but in exhibition only.
oh, you're talking actual serious racing... I was more curious about track day kinda duty, 20 min sessions, based on what you said above it should be ok? Or is 20 minutes considered "endurance" in this case?
oh, you're talking actual serious racing... I was more curious about track day kinda duty, 20 min sessions, based on what you said above it should be ok? Or is 20 minutes considered "endurance" in this case?
For HPDE duty theyre still a handful. The frustration to enjoyment ratio is decidedly against it. The motors are boat anchors perched 50/50 over the front axle, whhich means 3 cyl, much of your turbo, and all of your coolers are hanging 20 inches over the front wheels. In your pic look at the shock tower location in relation to the engine, and then remember the rest of the stuff that goes into the nose of a turbo car.
They also have a tendency to hot-spot between cyl 3 and 4 because of turbo plumbing. The euro spec cars had air ducted there to alleviate high speed knock resulting from the hot turbo Y pipe raising cyl temps.
Solving the car for HPDE duty is sure possible, but again, youll have more fun elsewhere I'm sure. There is a reason you don't see them at the track much, same with the FD.
For HPDE duty theyre still a handful. The frustration to enjoyment ratio is decidedly against it. The motors are boat anchors perched 50/50 over the front axle, whhich means 3 cyl, much of your turbo, and all of your coolers are hanging 20 inches over the front wheels. In your pic look at the shock tower location in relation to the engine, and then remember the rest of the stuff that goes into the nose of a turbo car.
They also have a tendency to hot-spot between cyl 3 and 4 because of turbo plumbing. The euro spec cars had air ducted there to alleviate high speed knock resulting from the hot turbo Y pipe raising cyl temps.
Solving the car for HPDE duty is sure possible, but again, youll have more fun elsewhere I'm sure. There is a reason you don't see them at the track much, same with the FD.
makes sense... so LS swap > 2JZ swap
is the cyl 3-4 hotspot still an issue with a single turbo? I guess the turbo is still right there... but you can put a turbo blanket on it and put in some heat shields...?
The 2JZ isn't that much heavier than a K24, maybe just over 100lb. About the same as an LS/LT. Its claim to fame is the ability to take boost. So much boost that people don't develop the rest of the motor. It probably isn't a good track day engine. However, drag racing--1/8 mile, 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile--it may be your lowest cost path to 1500hp.
The 2JZ isn't that much heavier than a K24, maybe just over 100lb. About the same as an LS/LT. Its claim to fame is the ability to take boost. So much boost that people don't develop the rest of the motor. It probably isn't a good track day engine. However, drag racing--1/8 mile, 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile--it may be your lowest cost path to 1500hp.
Why are you still going on and on about the 2JZ? It's a terrible choice for any form of racing outside of drag or drifting (where front-biased weight distribution doesn't matter so much). It's heavy and very long. Look how far it sticks out past the strut towers. It's no longer a front-mid engine car with a 2JZ. You're making the weight distribution & polar moment of inertia significantly worse. That changes handling quite a bit.
Way too much negativity in this thead. The K20/K24 is extremely popular in both mid-engine cars (MR2, various Lotus, even a few NSX, Ariel Atom, etc.) and now front-engine cars, like the Miata.
The OP clearly said he was interested in the wider track & longer wheelbase of the RX7, yet people suggested the Miata instead, which is even smaller than an S2000.
For a serious racecar (circuit racing, time attack, etc.), I think a high power turbo K-series FD RX7 would be killer. Fixes the reliability issues of the rotary, cheap to buy/build, is fairly compact & lightweight, makes a ton of power, revs high... what's not to like? That's basically the same formula the fastest time attack cars on the planet are using.
As for the FD RX7, there should be no apathy. It's great for many of the same reasons the S2000 is great. Good chassis, good dynamics, front-mid engine layout, & double wishbone suspension.
K24/FD RX-7 conversions are very rare. I imagine 2JZ/FD conversions are also rare.
The Lotus and MR2 conversions replace an antique Toyota engine of middling performance capability and little aftermarket support with the small block Chevy of 4-cylinder engines. Ditto for the Miata; far more potential than what Mazda shipped from the factory. The Miata also has a Chevy LS option. For similar reasons, it is a popular kit car engine.
This RX-7 maybe makes sense...kinda of...but it is hard to see why an LS1 conversion wouldn't be better. But it would be because you love the FD RX-7. It is an old chassis that wasn't that popular when new. The conversion will require a modicum of custom parts. The nice K24/FD conversion in the 3 video's I posted was outsourced to a professional shop.
The better question may be: How much is a K24/FD RX-7 worth to you? If you start if a $17k 150k mile beater there will be quite a bit of cost renovating it unless it is a dedicated race car (no interior, dash, electronics, HVAC, etc. Otherwise, you may down for $35k for the engine, transmission, and chassis. Even a K24 in an S2000, especially up to racing vigors, isn't trivial.
The 2JZ remains interesting because the JDM VVTi versions are under $3k. Lots of parts are available and for a relatively low cost it can be a 1000hp engine, assuming the right fuel. One popular conversion is to stick it in an S2000. It doesn't even look that far forward in the chassis on an S2000.
