STR Prep - ECU and Tuning Discusson
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 78
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From: Durham, NC
Originally Posted by birdmanjeremy' timestamp='1334003850' post='21591485
[quote name='PilotSH' timestamp='1334002433' post='21591392']
[quote name='nmrado' timestamp='1333993995' post='21590758']
[quote name='birdmanjeremy' timestamp='1333992999' post='21590688']
From Josh's description, it sounds like the EMU is adjusting the limiter (between the two steps) based on the readings from VSS, which may not be legal.
[quote name='nmrado' timestamp='1333993995' post='21590758']
[quote name='birdmanjeremy' timestamp='1333992999' post='21590688']
From Josh's description, it sounds like the EMU is adjusting the limiter (between the two steps) based on the readings from VSS, which may not be legal.
[/quote]
14.10 F 1 & 2
1 applies to the AP2
2 applies to the AP1.
I don't see anything in here that says you can reprogram the ecu but can't implement a 2 step rev limiter, therefore, if the 2 step rev limiter is done within the ECU rules, it should be legal.
[/quote]
The parts of the rules you quote say NOTHING about launch control. By your logic, if they don't say that you can't implement a 2 step rev limiter, then I guess since they don't mention that I can't change my hood or the stroke on my 2.0 liter engine, I can do those things? Nope.
Now, you are correct in that you can implement a 2 step rev limiter, but when the car is in motion and the rev limiter is preventing the wheels from spinning past a preset RPM limit until the wheels reach a certain speed (VSS pulses in the EManage's case), that is what launch control is, and illegal under the traction control rule. Does NOT matter the slightest whether or not it is a closed loop or open loop. Any device that limits the amount of power while the car is in motion (other than the actual rev limiter) is considered a form of traction control.
James
[/quote]
I agree. The two stage limiter is legal, traction (or launch) control is illegal, unless it is of the factory equipped variety.
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,376
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by PilotSH' timestamp='1334005360' post='21591583
[quote name='birdmanjeremy' timestamp='1334003850' post='21591485']
[quote name='PilotSH' timestamp='1334002433' post='21591392']
[quote name='nmrado' timestamp='1333993995' post='21590758']
[quote name='birdmanjeremy' timestamp='1333992999' post='21590688']
From Josh's description, it sounds like the EMU is adjusting the limiter (between the two steps) based on the readings from VSS, which may not be legal.
[quote name='PilotSH' timestamp='1334002433' post='21591392']
[quote name='nmrado' timestamp='1333993995' post='21590758']
[quote name='birdmanjeremy' timestamp='1333992999' post='21590688']
From Josh's description, it sounds like the EMU is adjusting the limiter (between the two steps) based on the readings from VSS, which may not be legal.
[/quote]
14.10 F 1 & 2
1 applies to the AP2
2 applies to the AP1.
I don't see anything in here that says you can reprogram the ecu but can't implement a 2 step rev limiter, therefore, if the 2 step rev limiter is done within the ECU rules, it should be legal.
[/quote]
The parts of the rules you quote say NOTHING about launch control. By your logic, if they don't say that you can't implement a 2 step rev limiter, then I guess since they don't mention that I can't change my hood or the stroke on my 2.0 liter engine, I can do those things? Nope.
Now, you are correct in that you can implement a 2 step rev limiter, but when the car is in motion and the rev limiter is preventing the wheels from spinning past a preset RPM limit until the wheels reach a certain speed (VSS pulses in the EManage's case), that is what launch control is, and illegal under the traction control rule. Does NOT matter the slightest whether or not it is a closed loop or open loop. Any device that limits the amount of power while the car is in motion (other than the actual rev limiter) is considered a form of traction control.
James
[/quote]
I agree. The two stage limiter is legal, traction (or launch) control is illegal, unless it is of the factory equipped variety.
[/quote]
While I fundamentally disagree with the idea that the EMU 2-step features any actual traction control (due to a lack of a feedback circuit, which is the defining characteristic of a control system), there is one word in the Solo rule book definition section that supports James' argument. The "traction control" definition states that parameters limiting "predicted" wheel spin, regardless of whether wheel spin is actually measured or not, are prohibited. If that one word was not included, it'd say the EMU features were 100% legal. I missed that word during my initial reading of the definition and therefore retract my stance and agree with James... 2-step limiter = legal, EMU VSS pulse delays > than "0" are not legal.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 730
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From: Honda HQ
They thought it might just be the cobination of parts I was using more than the intake design itself. The ID of the K&N was about 2.66" if I remember and the intake off the Type R we used was about 2.8" ID but was about 6 inches shorter. Made a difference though! We even tried a bunch of different filters on both intakes. I'm still using the K&N filter since it didn't seem to make a difference.
*******AP1-early AP2 owners: I have an extra AEM F/IC piggyback computer that I have for sale if you're interested. Excellent condition, only $200. You'll need to buy your own patch harness. PM if interested.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 401
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From: Pewaukee, WI
Originally Posted by pinkertonpunk' timestamp='1333992572' post='21590662
They thought it might just be the cobination of parts I was using more than the intake design itself. The ID of the K&N was about 2.66" if I remember and the intake off the Type R we used was about 2.8" ID but was about 6 inches shorter. Made a difference though! We even tried a bunch of different filters on both intakes. I'm still using the K&N filter since it didn't seem to make a difference.
*******AP1-early AP2 owners: I have an extra AEM F/IC piggyback computer that I have for sale if you're interested. Excellent condition, only $200. You'll need to buy your own patch harness. PM if interested.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,531
Likes: 3
From: Tucson
I had my car tuned at King Motorsports over the weekend. Happy with the results overall. Car feels like it has a very nice more usable powerband now. Had a small problem with the K&N intake that a lot of you guys use though. When we made pulls with that intake there was a large wave in the powerband around 7000rpm. The power would go up a bit but then drop down around 8hp and then go back to the smooth gains I had. I was told that whenever they see waves like that it had to do with one of the bolt ons so we tried an intake off of one of the employees Type Rs which had a slightly larger inner diameter and was a shorter pipe. The issue went away right away so I had them fab up a new intake for the car to replace the K&N. Now I just need to make a box to keep it from heatsoaking.
Mods include:
Custom intake (replaced the K%N FIPK)
Hytech header with 2.75" HFC pipe
T1R 70R EM-Limited Exhaust
Hondata FlashPro
Here are the dyno charts though. One shows the first pulls on the stock tune with the mods and the final few pulls after the tune. The other graph just shows the best and final pull. King said that they couldn't remember any S2000s with the same amount of mods that got over 220 on their dyno and that stock AP2s can hit about 205 or so at the wheels. Seems about right for my numbers I think.
Snip...]
Mods include:
Custom intake (replaced the K%N FIPK)
Hytech header with 2.75" HFC pipe
T1R 70R EM-Limited Exhaust
Hondata FlashPro
Here are the dyno charts though. One shows the first pulls on the stock tune with the mods and the final few pulls after the tune. The other graph just shows the best and final pull. King said that they couldn't remember any S2000s with the same amount of mods that got over 220 on their dyno and that stock AP2s can hit about 205 or so at the wheels. Seems about right for my numbers I think.
Snip...]
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,531
Likes: 3
From: Tucson
Below is the result of tuning on Friday. All relavent information added as notes on the plot. See second plot for comparison with twin loop muffler installed.
Small gains after bolt in mods. I wish I had a baseline before mods to see the overall gains from stock.
Ran an event yesterday and the increased torque made a difference for second gear pulling out of turns.
With muffler installed. Only small losses with this 93 dB compliant muffler which saves 9.5 lbs when removed.
Twin loop muffler shown below. See STR exhaust thread post #74 for more detail on this exhaust mod.
Small gains after bolt in mods. I wish I had a baseline before mods to see the overall gains from stock.
Ran an event yesterday and the increased torque made a difference for second gear pulling out of turns.
With muffler installed. Only small losses with this 93 dB compliant muffler which saves 9.5 lbs when removed.
Twin loop muffler shown below. See STR exhaust thread post #74 for more detail on this exhaust mod.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,531
Likes: 3
From: Tucson
- Tuner: Tony (owner) at UMS Tuning in Tempe, AZ
- I don't know if fuel or ignition timing was more effective. If I had to guess it would be AFR adjustment via fuel tweaks.
- Tony's perception was that the engine was not fully breathing. His guess is the K&N FIPK. We did a run with the intake disconnected at the throttle body but that messed up the power across the board. Tuning the intake tube is important. I wonder if the stock intake is the best? Some day I'll do a comparison. I think the gains look relatively normal compared to other AP1s.
- Partial throttle tuning was done to bias the ECU. Not sure how that will play out relative to the ECU learning.
- VTEC was set at 3900 RPM based on comparing the VTEC crossover points with and without the high cam kicked in.
I'll add more if I remember anything else.