Think I decided on an alignment..
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Pawtucket, RI
Stock is a range, from 0.32deg (0.14") to 0.64deg (0.28") total.
When I first started tracking the S, I ran max spec rear toe-in (0.64deg total) to make it "more stable", due to all I had read bout the AP1's oversteer propensity, and the fact that my tire stagger was practically square (widish 225s fronts w/ narrowish 245 rears).
The car *did* behave kinda spooky vs. my 240Z (which is VERY linear-handling and forgiving even when set up for massive oversteer).
I got about two events (Watkins Glen and Mostport) out of the rear tires before they were TOAST. 2nd day of 2nd track event, the rears went off BIG-time and the car was well nigh undriveable. Rears were corded by end of day. I had shared the car for the Mosport event, so call it the equivalent of three 2-day events with ~1 to 1.5 hours on track per day. Tires were only good for the equivalent of four single-driver track days, after that the rears were garbage.
Bought new rear tires and dialed down the rear toe in the interests of tire life. Asked for the min spec (0.32 total, 0.16deg per side), they gave me 0.15deg *total* instead.
To be honest, I feared that the next track day at Mont Tremblant would be a disaster, because everybody knows that less toe = less stability, right? But lo and behold, the car behaved *much* more linearly, no spookiness or massive oversteer! And tire life was *dramatically* improved. Like, by more than 2x.
That was my first lesson on toe-in with the AP1. My next lesson came a couple of years later.
At Mont Tremblant, in the wet, with standing water, the car was again well-nigh undriveable. The weird thing was that it would dart all over the place in a straight line, then when I turned into a corner it would PUSH like CRAZY. This was on street tires, Dunlop StarSpecs, which I'd had GREAT success with at the track in the wet previously. Tried the track tires just for the hell of it, similar response. It SUCKED! Shared the car again (with the brother of the woman I'd shared it with previously), and we were both kind of at a loss regarding the car's behavior.
Then, on the way home (on starspecs), I had to slow WAY down relative to traffic in a torrential downpour. The car was all over the place! I had to go ~10mph slower than traffic around me. The following week, even in the dry I noticed that the back end would move around over bumps and undulations. CREEPY! The car was living up to all the negatives I'd ever read about it being "oversteery" and evil-handling. Lived with it, but then the rear tires were gone at 3k miles. I *knew* something was up, took it back to the alignment shop and whaddya know, the rear toe had adjusted itself to 1 degree total. Which is of course WAY beyond US spec (crazily, WITHIN the UK spec!). They fixed it for free, set it back down to 0.2deg total. What a difference! And I'm now at ~15k on my rear RS-3 tires, with ~4-5/32 tread depth remaining.
That's my not-so-short story of toe-in with the S2k.
On the Z, all excessive toe did was make the car push. For whatever reason on the AP1, excessive toe makes the car an evil-handling bitch, while with minimal toe it is MUCH more linear-handling and easier to drive, while at the same time giving MUCH better turn-in, like it's drawn to the apex with a gazillion-watt electromagnet
Too much rear toe SUCKS in general, but on this car it SUPER-sucks.
Others who have run a lot might have much stiffer suspension (mine is stock) which would minimize the amount of additional toe-in they'd get due to suspension travel, which might make it more tolerable. But IMO, it's still a band-aid, and a POOR one at that.
I don't think you'll have any complaints with 1/16" total. That's 0.14 degrees total. IMO, anything from 0.1deg total to 0.3deg total should be OK.
When I first started tracking the S, I ran max spec rear toe-in (0.64deg total) to make it "more stable", due to all I had read bout the AP1's oversteer propensity, and the fact that my tire stagger was practically square (widish 225s fronts w/ narrowish 245 rears).
The car *did* behave kinda spooky vs. my 240Z (which is VERY linear-handling and forgiving even when set up for massive oversteer).
I got about two events (Watkins Glen and Mostport) out of the rear tires before they were TOAST. 2nd day of 2nd track event, the rears went off BIG-time and the car was well nigh undriveable. Rears were corded by end of day. I had shared the car for the Mosport event, so call it the equivalent of three 2-day events with ~1 to 1.5 hours on track per day. Tires were only good for the equivalent of four single-driver track days, after that the rears were garbage.
Bought new rear tires and dialed down the rear toe in the interests of tire life. Asked for the min spec (0.32 total, 0.16deg per side), they gave me 0.15deg *total* instead.
To be honest, I feared that the next track day at Mont Tremblant would be a disaster, because everybody knows that less toe = less stability, right? But lo and behold, the car behaved *much* more linearly, no spookiness or massive oversteer! And tire life was *dramatically* improved. Like, by more than 2x.
That was my first lesson on toe-in with the AP1. My next lesson came a couple of years later.
At Mont Tremblant, in the wet, with standing water, the car was again well-nigh undriveable. The weird thing was that it would dart all over the place in a straight line, then when I turned into a corner it would PUSH like CRAZY. This was on street tires, Dunlop StarSpecs, which I'd had GREAT success with at the track in the wet previously. Tried the track tires just for the hell of it, similar response. It SUCKED! Shared the car again (with the brother of the woman I'd shared it with previously), and we were both kind of at a loss regarding the car's behavior.
Then, on the way home (on starspecs), I had to slow WAY down relative to traffic in a torrential downpour. The car was all over the place! I had to go ~10mph slower than traffic around me. The following week, even in the dry I noticed that the back end would move around over bumps and undulations. CREEPY! The car was living up to all the negatives I'd ever read about it being "oversteery" and evil-handling. Lived with it, but then the rear tires were gone at 3k miles. I *knew* something was up, took it back to the alignment shop and whaddya know, the rear toe had adjusted itself to 1 degree total. Which is of course WAY beyond US spec (crazily, WITHIN the UK spec!). They fixed it for free, set it back down to 0.2deg total. What a difference! And I'm now at ~15k on my rear RS-3 tires, with ~4-5/32 tread depth remaining.
That's my not-so-short story of toe-in with the S2k.
On the Z, all excessive toe did was make the car push. For whatever reason on the AP1, excessive toe makes the car an evil-handling bitch, while with minimal toe it is MUCH more linear-handling and easier to drive, while at the same time giving MUCH better turn-in, like it's drawn to the apex with a gazillion-watt electromagnet
Too much rear toe SUCKS in general, but on this car it SUPER-sucks.
Others who have run a lot might have much stiffer suspension (mine is stock) which would minimize the amount of additional toe-in they'd get due to suspension travel, which might make it more tolerable. But IMO, it's still a band-aid, and a POOR one at that.
I don't think you'll have any complaints with 1/16" total. That's 0.14 degrees total. IMO, anything from 0.1deg total to 0.3deg total should be OK.
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Chris, I was running 1/4" of total toe in at the ASR Superlap challenge when you were there. Yes the track is tight, twisty and bumpy, but I didn't experience any abnormal instability due to my rear toe or AP1 dynamic toe. I don't use a RSB, so I do get a fairly large amount of rear articulation. Somewhere around 1/8" of total toe will be fine for your setup. Driving experience will play a much larger role in the stability and lap times. Pick a reasonable alignment (which you've already done) and go get some seat time!
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Chris, I was running 1/4" of total toe in at the ASR Superlap challenge when you were there. Yes the track is tight, twisty and bumpy, but I didn't experience any abnormal instability due to my rear toe or AP1 dynamic toe. I don't use a RSB, so I do get a fairly large amount of rear articulation. Somewhere around 1/8" of total toe will be fine for your setup. Driving experience will play a much larger role in the stability and lap times. Pick a reasonable alignment (which you've already done) and go get some seat time!
NMRADO are you coming to the track day I posted in the new mexico forum on May26th?!?
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From: Near Philadelphia
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Originally Posted by cadams05nfr' timestamp='1333983442' post='21589952
Hey also what is 1/8 inch in degrees total so I can let the alignment guy know?
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