Toe or No in the rear?
10-29-2013, 06:55 AM
#1
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Toe or No in the rear?
I've searched a bit but haven't found a alignment thread so looking for feedback on what people are running for alignment specs and most specifically what they set rear toe to? This car is a '03 AP1 that is mainly a street car/daily driver which is pretty much stock that I will possibly put on a track some time, but that would be limited. I can handle a bit of twitchiness, but want the car to be stable at speed and would also like the rear tires to last as long as the fronts so I can put on some medium compund tires (maybe around 275 treadwear rating) and have them last through a couple / few summers.
There seems to be moderate range of opinion on what are good alignment specs, with rear toe being a hot issue, I've heard from zero toe all the way up to stock settings, so what does everyone recommend for my situation and why TIA.
There seems to be moderate range of opinion on what are good alignment specs, with rear toe being a hot issue, I've heard from zero toe all the way up to stock settings, so what does everyone recommend for my situation and why TIA.
10-29-2013, 07:40 AM
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After trying a static 0 toe, I can attest that under highway lift, it toes out a little bit and causes slight wobble. You can either solve it like I did (front splitter and wing to eliminate lift) or what thanasis11 suggested: minimum spec toe-in. I'm the exact same way with regards to driving characteristics.
10-29-2013, 07:57 AM
#4
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I have an AP2 and use 0 toe all around for street but mostly track use. The car is non staggered with no wing and no aftermarket sway bars. On the street it doesn't feel any different than my previous 1/16" total toe in. On the track it is slightly more of a handful if you're not smooth with inputs but I did break my previous personal best at Thunderhill by .6 seconds on 12th day RE-11As .
Results will likely be different on an AP1 though. You should look into a rear bump steer kit for your car if you're concerned about little to no toe-in being a problem.
Results will likely be different on an AP1 though. You should look into a rear bump steer kit for your car if you're concerned about little to no toe-in being a problem.
10-29-2013, 05:54 PM
#6
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I'd say slight toe in for the rear. I run a total of .16 deg toe rear. Love my alignment.
10-29-2013, 08:16 PM
#7
I prefer a bit of toe in on the rear. Less for certain tracks (1/16" total), more for others (3/16" total). I will never do 0 toe in the rear of a RWD car. For street driving , keep it at the low end of the OEM spec for extended tire life.
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10-30-2013, 06:52 AM
#8
Looking for opinions as well. My car never sees track time, (ive done 1 auto-x in 2 years), i'm running non staggered (9" with 255/40") and I have a front splitter that goes back to the rad support without any rear wing. After installing the splitter I could tell the difference in lift at highway speeds. Plan on getting atleast an OEM AP2 type spoiler. Im running towards the lower end of the OEM rear toe-in spec, but I dont remember the exact number. With hankook v12 evo's im only getting about 10-12k miles out of rears with noticable toe-in induced wear. I drive a fairly easy 20-30k a year so it is getting really old replacing rear tires at a rate of double and even triple the fronts. Some have told me i'd kill myself by setting the rear to 0 toe, but im not sure why? I also have a rear bump steer kit installed, OEM sways all around, and running around -2.8 rear camber.
Any help and personal experience would be greatly appreciated.
Any help and personal experience would be greatly appreciated.
11-14-2013, 05:16 AM
#9
So I got an alignment done yesterday. I stressed that I wanted .16 to .20 degrees total toe in, but the guy simply wouldnt do it because that would be "in the red and will eat tires" 
So what I ended up with is .4x total toe in at the rear (this is within the stock ap1 toe specs).. Atleast the front is right, but I guess I gotta find someone else to do it 
So what I ended up with is .4x total toe in at the rear (this is within the stock ap1 toe specs).. Atleast the front is right, but I guess I gotta find someone else to do it
11-14-2013, 09:31 PM
#10
Install Rear bumpsteer kit from Spoon & reset ride height to factory
I have not measured toe, however tire left after installation is significantly longer.
Here is why: (warning: a little bit long; feel free to read on)
After long and extensive research and reading endlessly about suspension tuning. I purchased a set of bumpsteer kits from Spoon Sports Japan. I purchased front and rear. After installation of front and rear bump steer kits, I had instructed my mechanic to set the suspension height to factory. Basically the rear bumpsteer kit (the one we are interested is the toe factor) is significantly reduced because of the lower control arm is actually lowered from the wheel hub. Suspension movement with the lowered control arm yields much LESS toe-in (both static and dynamic) conditions. Strangely you will also get increase dynamic camber; so maybe better to reduce the negative camber to increase the tire life as well. The ultimate effect is significant reduction in snap oversteer! Control of TOE settings should have been established firmly at factory.. However, with TOE adjustments made, it was really for the more advanced drivers, like all of us. I however did not want too much toe because of tire scrubbing. Aggressive toe settings are more suitable for specific track duty; plus they are usually the last and final stages of suspension adjustments for track driving.
If you'd like to read on, here is something I decided to put together based on Spoon bumpsteer kit and TOE relationships.
Impressions of OEM AP1
-Bias for the more advanced drivers; more aggressive TOE settings
-Prone to snap oversteer (driver drift angle is out of the "drift angle sweet spot")
-AP1 riding over uneven bumps; you will fell "suspension squiggle" while vehicle settles.
-high driving limit with not much room for error
Impressions with chassis additions & settings on AP1
-Front tower strut bar
-Spoon lower X brace
-KW variant 1 set to factory height
-17" AP2 Wheels 225 45r 17 front, 255 40r 17 rear: Dunlop Z1 SS all 33psi cold
-Rear Comptech tie bar
-OEM SWAY front and REAR
-KW suspension spring rates start at 560lb/in > here is an article i wrote:
http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread/t-358617.html
With the suspension and frame altered. the chassis is noticeably much much stiffer, the suspension articulation is much more pronounced. Driving with this configuration gives you much more awareness of what the suspension is doing. However, the snap over steer problem is not necessarily worse, it rather is much much easier to detect; however not to be confused with the snap oversteer has changed.. it has not. Please also note everything is completely Stock, engine, exhaust etc. the only differences are AP2 wheels on a AP1 vehicle and Factory ride height.
Impressions with chassis stiffening & Bump steer kit (front and rear) & Eibach front and rear sway set to soft.
-Immediately noticed a much more forgiving handling.
-much higher comfort driving
-negotiating rough roads seems much easier for the vehicle
-lowered control arm at rear and front effectively adds a hint of suspension travel
-much higher compliancy with turns, handling and emergency maneuvers
-vehicle feels somehow lighter
-optimized suspension angles
-Feels a little more solid than the CR model; as if it was a Type R model that should have been manufactured.
-Tire wear is reduced; normally the tires would wear out at 6000km
-Tires now are almost 2 years old and still has 80% treadwear left, averaging 10,000 km/year (6250mi)
-Handling is much easier, the car is both more forgiving and much easier to turn
Car is on a totally different level of handling (with the majority of the contributor being the spoon bumpsteer kit). Now with the bumpsteers correction kit, felt like it can approach the limit much more aggressively. When driving at the cornering limits, the snap oversteer seems to have been "flattened" now letting the driver drive completely at a different level and literally you can drive very very easily at the limit; without any loss of cornering, grip and control. -Feels like the car is going 10% slower however speed indicates an actual speed increase; suspect is the reduced TOE - IN condition.
ie on cloverleaf ramps, it would be easy to do 50mph, now it is easy to hit 60mph. exit speed of a 100R cloverleaf was 130km/hr. (80mph) Slalom speeds, I would estimate it can hit easily 70mph for slalom speeds, it just simply feels much much easier to handle. The driving is so completely compliant, it is unbelievable!
Feels actually better than a CR. The CR feels actually a little bit softer and more linear.. yet it still slips at the tires and doesn't rotate as much at the limits.
Additionally on rotation of vehicle at limit:
The vehicle rotates every very noticeably.. It tells you to dig more into the turn. It is strange, and when you dig more into the turn, the car keeps on giving you the tighter driving line that you command. And when the real limit approaches, it seems to remain at the same slip angle, however not really drifting. It really has become an excellent neutral handling vehicle. This is the same behavior with the early Ap1's at a much faster approach to the limit. with this bump steer kit, the approach to limit is very very slow, yet driving angles feel sharper. And when there is a breakaway, it feels very smooth and very progressive. It is like your brain is hardwired directly to the tires.
Early AP1's had suspension issues related to dive squat; Ap1 would offer an earlier turn in and a higher limit at the cost of progressive breakaway; hence TOE in under compression.
With the Spoon Bumpsteer kit; its like as if the rear is just starting to slip is where the front is starting to slip as well, thus sort of preventing a snap oversteer situation; almost a controlled hint of 4 wheel drift?? This is with complete neutral throttle application; using only throttle to maintain speed.
Next upgrade would be to get the "floor ladder bars" from cusco. After thinking what they would be used for; here is my hypothesis: they reduce braking and acceleration chassis flex (between front and rear axle). Additionally, they should also reduce torsional chassis flex, that can be the result of differences between the sway rates of front and rear bars. I believe chassis torsional flex is reduced with the floor ladder bar. Many users report they have had much better driving experiences with floor ladder bars.
Obviously you will find progressive stiffening that benefits the AP1/Ap2 models with each subsequent upgrade. I believe suspension really can improve not by 1 simple part, rather by several parts in orchestration to achieve a combined effect.
Next upgrades:
cusco 3 point front tie bar
cusco floor ladder bar
spoon rigid collar kit
I have not measured toe, however tire left after installation is significantly longer.
Here is why: (warning: a little bit long; feel free to read on)
After long and extensive research and reading endlessly about suspension tuning. I purchased a set of bumpsteer kits from Spoon Sports Japan. I purchased front and rear. After installation of front and rear bump steer kits, I had instructed my mechanic to set the suspension height to factory. Basically the rear bumpsteer kit (the one we are interested is the toe factor) is significantly reduced because of the lower control arm is actually lowered from the wheel hub. Suspension movement with the lowered control arm yields much LESS toe-in (both static and dynamic) conditions. Strangely you will also get increase dynamic camber; so maybe better to reduce the negative camber to increase the tire life as well. The ultimate effect is significant reduction in snap oversteer! Control of TOE settings should have been established firmly at factory.. However, with TOE adjustments made, it was really for the more advanced drivers, like all of us. I however did not want too much toe because of tire scrubbing. Aggressive toe settings are more suitable for specific track duty; plus they are usually the last and final stages of suspension adjustments for track driving.
If you'd like to read on, here is something I decided to put together based on Spoon bumpsteer kit and TOE relationships.
Impressions of OEM AP1
-Bias for the more advanced drivers; more aggressive TOE settings
-Prone to snap oversteer (driver drift angle is out of the "drift angle sweet spot")
-AP1 riding over uneven bumps; you will fell "suspension squiggle" while vehicle settles.
-high driving limit with not much room for error
Impressions with chassis additions & settings on AP1
-Front tower strut bar
-Spoon lower X brace
-KW variant 1 set to factory height
-17" AP2 Wheels 225 45r 17 front, 255 40r 17 rear: Dunlop Z1 SS all 33psi cold
-Rear Comptech tie bar
-OEM SWAY front and REAR
-KW suspension spring rates start at 560lb/in > here is an article i wrote:
http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread/t-358617.html
With the suspension and frame altered. the chassis is noticeably much much stiffer, the suspension articulation is much more pronounced. Driving with this configuration gives you much more awareness of what the suspension is doing. However, the snap over steer problem is not necessarily worse, it rather is much much easier to detect; however not to be confused with the snap oversteer has changed.. it has not. Please also note everything is completely Stock, engine, exhaust etc. the only differences are AP2 wheels on a AP1 vehicle and Factory ride height.
Impressions with chassis stiffening & Bump steer kit (front and rear) & Eibach front and rear sway set to soft.
-Immediately noticed a much more forgiving handling.
-much higher comfort driving
-negotiating rough roads seems much easier for the vehicle
-lowered control arm at rear and front effectively adds a hint of suspension travel
-much higher compliancy with turns, handling and emergency maneuvers
-vehicle feels somehow lighter
-optimized suspension angles
-Feels a little more solid than the CR model; as if it was a Type R model that should have been manufactured.
-Tire wear is reduced; normally the tires would wear out at 6000km
-Tires now are almost 2 years old and still has 80% treadwear left, averaging 10,000 km/year (6250mi)
-Handling is much easier, the car is both more forgiving and much easier to turn
Car is on a totally different level of handling (with the majority of the contributor being the spoon bumpsteer kit). Now with the bumpsteers correction kit, felt like it can approach the limit much more aggressively. When driving at the cornering limits, the snap oversteer seems to have been "flattened" now letting the driver drive completely at a different level and literally you can drive very very easily at the limit; without any loss of cornering, grip and control. -Feels like the car is going 10% slower however speed indicates an actual speed increase; suspect is the reduced TOE - IN condition.
ie on cloverleaf ramps, it would be easy to do 50mph, now it is easy to hit 60mph. exit speed of a 100R cloverleaf was 130km/hr. (80mph) Slalom speeds, I would estimate it can hit easily 70mph for slalom speeds, it just simply feels much much easier to handle. The driving is so completely compliant, it is unbelievable!
Feels actually better than a CR. The CR feels actually a little bit softer and more linear.. yet it still slips at the tires and doesn't rotate as much at the limits.
Additionally on rotation of vehicle at limit:
The vehicle rotates every very noticeably.. It tells you to dig more into the turn. It is strange, and when you dig more into the turn, the car keeps on giving you the tighter driving line that you command. And when the real limit approaches, it seems to remain at the same slip angle, however not really drifting. It really has become an excellent neutral handling vehicle. This is the same behavior with the early Ap1's at a much faster approach to the limit. with this bump steer kit, the approach to limit is very very slow, yet driving angles feel sharper. And when there is a breakaway, it feels very smooth and very progressive. It is like your brain is hardwired directly to the tires.
Early AP1's had suspension issues related to dive squat; Ap1 would offer an earlier turn in and a higher limit at the cost of progressive breakaway; hence TOE in under compression.
With the Spoon Bumpsteer kit; its like as if the rear is just starting to slip is where the front is starting to slip as well, thus sort of preventing a snap oversteer situation; almost a controlled hint of 4 wheel drift?? This is with complete neutral throttle application; using only throttle to maintain speed.
Next upgrade would be to get the "floor ladder bars" from cusco. After thinking what they would be used for; here is my hypothesis: they reduce braking and acceleration chassis flex (between front and rear axle). Additionally, they should also reduce torsional chassis flex, that can be the result of differences between the sway rates of front and rear bars. I believe chassis torsional flex is reduced with the floor ladder bar. Many users report they have had much better driving experiences with floor ladder bars.
Obviously you will find progressive stiffening that benefits the AP1/Ap2 models with each subsequent upgrade. I believe suspension really can improve not by 1 simple part, rather by several parts in orchestration to achieve a combined effect.
Next upgrades:
cusco 3 point front tie bar
cusco floor ladder bar
spoon rigid collar kit
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