xviper -- it's not the driver, and it's not the driving technique. I've owned TONS of Hondas in my time (three different CRXs, all ranging from bone stock to supercharged and even turbocharged), I've owned 3 different Integras ranging from regular 2ng gen LS's to 3rd gen GS-R's, and have owned/driven stock Civics ranging from '89-'94 for extensive periods of time. EVERY single one of these cars has been a 5-speed. I'm also on my second 2002 S2000 at this point. NONE of the above mentioned cars have done this 'bucking' except for the S2000. The S2000 is still a damned HONDA, and should be able to be driven just like all of the other Hondas I own. The issue is primarily to do with heat soak on the S2000. Between the high compression engine, the knock sensor retarding timing due to the heat, the AT sensor detecting high intake temperatures, etc, and the restrictive stock airbox opening, the car just can't get enough air that is dense enough coming in.

Unless you live in south Texas or Arizona, you don't know what true heat soak is all about and how it affects these cars.

The best solution I have found -- and this has been confirmed on both my previous S2000 and my current S2000, along with the SIX other owners living in San Antonio that have done this as well -- is to remove the top off of the airbox and don't ever use it again. Now, before ANYBODY tries to dispute this and say, "Oh, that will get your filter dirty quicker" or "But you will be sucking in hot air off of the radiator" I challenge you to try it and see for yourself that tremendous increase in off-the-line throttle response you get (both hot and cold) by doing this.

Heat soak is no longer such an issue for my car, even when double-entered at the local AutoCross and my fiancee and I are running it back-to-back-to-back one run after another. Two other folks in my local AutoCross club have tried this, and have never put their airbox top back on since they removed it. Another local owner that goes on drives with us has removed his and never put it back on. The air filter does not get excessively dirty between scheduled changes (every 30k miles). Most of us that care about our cars on here change it more often than that, anyways.

As for the claim that you will suck in hot air from the radiator -- look where the STOCK inlet pipe is -- it's sitting RIGHT on top of the end tank for the radiator already. The fact that you can draw in MORE air with the top off is what helps. I have had NO decrease in gas mileage by doing this and there are no negative side effects. I've gone through low water crossings 1.5 feet deep without getting any water into my air filter whatsoever.

I challenge EVERYBODY to go spend 10 seconds on their lunch hour to take off their airbox top and throw it in the trunk. You will immediately notice a difference -- especially if you get stuck in rush-hour traffic on your commute home in the evening.

Try it.

For GOD sakes, PLEASE don't "slip" the clutch to get rid of this problem. Everybody complains that these clutches are weak enough as it is, and I've ridden with plenty of people that treat clutches like crap as it is.

 

rickycrx, do you have a picture of what you are talking about? I don't know much about cars to know what to remove.

Cheers

 

Has anyone else tried this?

I live in AZ and heat soak is a MAJOR issue for me. If this remedies it, I would be so happy, you wouldn't believe.

 

Like I said -- just go try it and drive around for a day. You will never go back.

As for how to do it -- look at the big black plastic airbox right behind the radiator. There are 6 or so clips around it. Just unsnap those and lift the top of the airbox straight up. Throw it in the trunk and go for a drive.

The added benefit of this is that the car has a REALLY nice deep growl at wide open throttle, while maintaining an almost-stock sound when you are not getting on it.

 

[QUOTE=rickycrx,Jul 9 2004, 11:38 AM]Like I said -- just go try it and drive around for a day.

 

Ricky, I think we've had this difference of opinion before. You are entitled to your opinion, but I'm sticking to my story. This is not your "father's Oldsmobile"! ie, all your "tons of Hondas" may not have any bearing upon what's going on here. We have a 3000 pound rear driven car with an entirely different engine with a different intake system, different exhaust system, different tranny gearing, different final drive gearing, clutch type and size.

Before I get too sidetracked, I don't believe anyone is telling anyone else to "slip" the clutch. If that's the impression you've gotten, then you got it wrong. All I've ever professed is that in stop and go traffic, you use the clutch and throttle only momentarily and only enough to impart sufficient power to propel the car forward at the required and safe speed. This is what I meant by "working the clutch". Please do not imply that I told anyone to slip their clutch the whole time during stop and go traffic because I have NEVER said this.

As I've said before, I can purposely make my car "buck" at will and knowing why it does it, I drive in such a way as to not make it do it anymore. I have also said that in the past, I have been able to make my Viper and both Corvettes "buck". What I do on purpose can easily be done an owner who is unaware.

Now to get to your topic of removing the airbox lid and not sucking in hot air, this may indeed resolve your "bucking" issue, but my underhood temperature studies that were done a couple years ago measured temps in various places in the engine bay (these are on record here on this forum) and with the airbox lid off, you will suck in hot air. Something else is at work if removing the lid resolves your bucking situation. This is not conjecture. I have documented numbers.
Hot air may only be one element of the equation. Without the lid, you may have introduced another element - air volume. Who's to say?

As I've said before, I'm not getting into a pissing match with you on this. I can make my car not buck by adjusting my driving style as have many others. Just as it was ludicrous to think that even in a 488 ft/lb Viper, you can let the rpm get down to near 500 rpm and punch it without some kind of bog or bucking, it is just as ludicrous to think that on an S2000, you can get near 1000 - 1500 rpm and punch it without some ramifications. (And I'm talking about under those conditions where this "bucking" is most common.)

If taking the lid off works for you, fine. But I, for one, do quite nicely by simply adjusting my technique just a bit to compensate for something that is not unique to an S2000.

 

First of all, I KNOW that if you 'stomp' the throttle at low RPMs, you're not going to get anything happening. I'm talking about that the car does this only when it's heat-soaked, and ONLY when in stop-n-go traffic where you are using gentle/small throttle inputs.

Perhaps you missed the part in my original post about owning Hondas of various modification levels. Tell me why I have *NO* problems driving a CRX with a fully-built engine, 450cc fuel injectors (stocks are 230cc), SEVEN (7) POUND ALUMINUM FLYWHEEL WITH AN ACT 6-PUCK SOLID-HUB RACE CLUTCH smoothly in stop-n-go traffic, but have problems driving bone stock heat-soaked S2000's smoothly in stop-n-go traffic? It takes a WHOLE hell of a lot more finesse to drive something like that smoothly than it does a bone stock S2000. Trust me on this one... Just this once... It's the CAR, not the driver.

And as for 'working' the clutch -- what the hell is there to 'work' to get the car to smooth out??? If the car won't take the gas, but letting completely OFF the gas and starting back out again fixes the problem, then maybe, just MAYBE do you think there could be something WRONG with the fuel maps, or perhaps the injector timing, or head flow characteristics, or SOMETHING that's not right at those RPMs?? Seriously -- think about it for a minute. Why should anybody have to drive THIS ONE PARTICULAR CAR differently than any of the other manual transmissioned cars on the planet? No NSX, Z06, Viper, Integra, Civic, CRX, Prelude, RX-7, RX-8, Miata, etc, etc that I have EVER driven has done this before. I've both raced and driven a lot of cars and have never seen another type of vehicle that has this same problem -- IT IS A DESIGN FAULT OF THE CAR. Granted, it is not enough for me to lose sleep over -- I'm just saying that Honda DOES make engineering mistakes, just like any other car company. They didn't take into account the conditions that these cars might be driven in at times when stuck in rush-hour type traffic.

Regardless of whether or not the air is hotter, it's only a few degrees more, and the additional volume of air being pulled in more than makes up for this difference. As I said before -- pull up to a stoplight when it's 102 degrees outside and you've just been on the highway for 30 minutes and try to 'get on it' briskly off the line (WITHOUT slipping the crap out of the clutch) and you will get run over by Yugos. With the airbox cover off, you don't get that bog off the line, and the car will actually go, even if it is hot.

At any rate, please stop telling people to 'adjust their driving style' because all that's going to happen is MOST people are just going to cause excess wear and tear on their clutch trying to do what you are telling them to do. I, personally, have done the 'push in the clutch and re-engage' many times when my car used to do the bucking, but why bother having to keep doing that all the time when there is a free fix that takes 10 seconds to do? Why should anybody have to deal with the hassle of this problem??

 

Independent of the merits of the "mod", I tried removing the air box lid tonight. It took all of 10 seconds to get it off. The engine sounds a lot more throaty this way, but I think I am able to drive it without bucking. Of course, more driving will help me determine if this is the way I want to go.

Anyway, thanks for the info; I'm going to try this out for a few weeks.

Cheers

 

[QUOTE=rickycrx,Jul 10 2004, 08:03 PM] Perhaps you missed the part in my original post about owning Hondas of various modification levels.

 

Yikes guys. Two things interesting here. There are Yugos on the road somewhere???? And no one has mentioned the loss of power with the cover off. I did it a few times for the different sound, but didn't like the slower acceleration. I think this said, we can officially pronounce this thread BEATEN TO DEATH!