Beig, I appreciate your point of view. To answer your question in my own personal opinion, this is no diffrent than life it self. We deal with these type of things everyday day in and day out. People in general have a desire to be heard, because they believe they have a valid point which they want to share. The problem is people don't try to dicuss there diffrences intellegently or peacefully. When they preceive that they haven't be heard or misquoted they become frustrated and angry. When the opinion doesn't fit their personal view point they become close minded and no longer wish to share their view point. This is when things become messy. People turn a perfectly intellegent conversation into a personal matter. I can pick them out immediately by their vocabulary and retort. It's to hard for most people to look inward first for the truth before lashing out at the person next to them. Cause to much pride, not wanting to really ingage in a warranted discussion and generally being immature (younger).

I really appreciate our diffrences of opinion. I have made several modifications only for the case of ease of service ie, air filter, floormats etc. I believe that Honda has engineered the vehicle to a point of redundancy. Anything else that we do to it is overkill. Again this is my opinion. Take for instance adding a header. Best horsepower inprovement tested by manfactures is about 3 hp. Need I say more. The cost of such modifications far out ways the benefit. Keeping it stock is a very good and valid point. I find it hard to believe that anyone here has the expertise that Honda does in producing usuable power. No offence, if this was true then you'd be working for them or another automotive firm. The automobile is a true work of art in it's own right. I don't disagree with anyone's right to do their own thing. This amounts to personalization nothing more. I just don't see many antiques or collector vehicles being modified and bringing high dollars. Think about the Barrett Auctions.

The only personal note that I would like to express is, everyone hear (including me) could do to listen a little more and be more accepting of others opinions. Remember, that's all they are and who knows you might learn something. I know I have on several occassions.

Bieg you have made some very good points and I appreciate your opinion, not that I agree with it intirely.

[Edited by Jeff on 06-04-2001 at 11:35 AM]

 

This would be a much better thread (read informative) if everyone took the personal crap to another thread. Maybe you could title it - 10 things I hate about <insert name here>

I'd rather read about and debate the subject of the original message rather than if Beig or anyone else is conducting an experiment or dislikes someone else, yadda, yadda, yadda.

To those who have posted intelligent and well thought out arguments for or against, I applaud you.

Let's see if we can keep this thread going as an intelligent discussion of the topic rather than a series of personal attacks and off-topic diatribe?

As I see it, this thread should be about proving (or disproving) the equation:

Value of S2000 + mods < Value S2000 no mods

For that matter, you can use any car you'd like to prove/disprove. Just make sure you are comparing apples and apples.

Prove/Disprove that a bone-stock car of any variety repeatedly sells for/sold for more/less than a modified car of the same variety with the same mileage, care, attention to detail and pride of ownership in each vehicle. I'm not talking one-offs because there are always exceptions to every rule.

This shouldn't be about whether people like mods or not or whether they improve handling, performance, etc.

Some points I've brought up and would like others to comment on are:

Is the S2000 modded more than other cars in it's class (aside from racing-specific modifications) If so, is it because more enthusiasts own the S2000 than competing cars? Is it because the owner's demographics differ from those who purchase other cars?

What are cars that were built 20-30 years ago selling for in bone-stock vs. modified (racecars with a proven heritage excluded)?

Would you buy:
a) A 1 yr old, well taken care of bone-stock S2000 with 10K
OR
b) A 1 yr old, well taken care of supercharged, S2000 with a full exhaust, replacement rims, ecu, full Rick's leather, with 10K

Would you pay more for A or B? Why?

And remember, there doesn't have to be a winner or loser here. A good debate could serve as an informative post to help would-be owners and modifiers alike to decide just what approach is right for them based on their needs, wants and desires for one of the finest driving machines ever produced.

 

I appreciate that. I don't expect ANYONE to agree with me entirely, I just expect the right to express my opinion. That should be the right of EVERYBODY here.

Thank you for your reasonable response.

UL,

I appreciate your posts on this and many other topics. I can understand why you may be confused. I will tell you that there is a very silent minority (about 40% based on a recent poll here) that don't like the intimidation that happens when you post something that goes against the majority view. In this case the majority favor Mods. That does not mean that the majority rules and other opinions can't be heard. I, because I obviously am not silent and will not bend to the pressure have received many PMs saying that they feel very much the same way but don't like to say it in the public forum due to all the intimidation. They voice support and also warn me of the flames sure to follow.

Did I know that this original post would draw the wrath of the Mod Squad? I had hopes that it wouldn't due to the careful wording but I feared that the worst would happen. Was the reason I posted to do an experiment? No, I posted it as a sister piece to my other thread "S Stands For Special". Did the reaction it generated prove my worst fears? Yes and No. As you can see this generated many thoughtful responses and that is what I had hoped to achieve but true to form SOME of the bullies here just had to make it personal. Will I use this as an example to make a point? Yes because it is a point that needs to be made and to some extent it has had a positive effect. I notice a few threads (on posted by Cthree no less) preaching tolerance. Bravo for them.

Maybe this forum can then become more of a place for the exchange of ALL opinions, not just those who shout the loudest.

 

Bravo! That is the spirit. Good for you sir.

One point though, your example using the supercharger is likely to be skewed because someone looking to buy the car with a supercharger will pay more for it. The question will be will he pay 5K more for it and then how many others won't touch it at all.

I refer peole who seriously are debating these things to view shows like "My Classic Car" and "Dream Car Garage" to see the extent people go to to restore cars to their original condition. The Barret Jackson Auction is also an eye opener to those wondering about the value of these cars.

Another question might be to those who have modded cars in the past and then sold or traded them in; "Did you get the full retail value of the car PLUS the full value of the modifications you made?" I suspect the answer to that would be no. Some here have already traded in modded cars and they removed the mods because they did nothing to increase the trade in value so they decided to sell the mods seperately.



[Edited by Bieg on 06-04-2001 at 12:43 PM]

 

Bieg, I'd think twice about buying an used automobile that had this type of modification. Especially, when I don't know the owner. There are to many negative thoughts that come to mind. Abuse being the most prevailant. Most of the time the car would have been driven hard. What's the use of having such modifications without using them. How could you justify having such if you didn't use it? I'm kinda curious about what type of dicussion we will have when when the first SC SK2 blows. No offense COMPTECH I love your products and wouldn't have any other. Eather way I still feel that it would be much easier to sell with all the factory specs intact.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bieg

[B]One point though, your example using the supercharger is likely to be skewed because someone looking to buy the car with a supercharger will pay more for it.

 

I bought an S2000 instead of a used NSX for the same price mainly because the NSXs I could find in that range weren't in good enough condition for me, so I wanted the new car that nobody else has touched. That should give you an idea of what my thoughts are on the subject - as a buyer. (This relates, I think, to the aversion many people have to valet parking, having over 20 miles on the odometer when picking the car up for the first time, etc.)

I am, however, a member of the "Mod Squad." (The term doesn't bother me, btw, but the derisiveness I sense behind it does. *shrug*)

So I think it all boils down to: The best reason for keeping your car stock is that it's cheaper.

Pretty simple, really.

Now, in my mind there's still questions about the "respect for the engineers" and "Civic to Ferrari spectrum" aspects raised in the initial post. I've already posted several points why I think the latter is invalid, and while I think the former is invalid too I haven't figured out the best way to explain why...

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Elistan
[B]I bought an S2000 instead of a used NSX for the same price mainly because the NSXs I could find in that range weren't in good enough condition for me, so I wanted the new car that nobody else has touched.

 

I believe this is the correct forum for the anti-Mod argument.

And a sane and rational argument it is. There is little doubt that in terms of resale value and, in most cases, performance, mods are a backwards step.

But that doesn't mean it's right for everyone. Some people are not concerned about resale value, actual dyno-proven performance, or even what the majority (mediocrity??) concider to be "good taste". Take my wheels for example. They are heavier than stock so degrade performance. And many don't think they look good. I do, and I'm secure enough in my beliefs that I don't have a problem with others opinions (oh, and I can't afford Work Wheels ).

What I do have a problem with (only a small one) is A) peoples negaive and personal reactions to this thread (you know who you are) B)Bieg's insistance on repeatedly spouting his anti-mod doctrine in threads about a particular mod. Usually with all the subtlety of a wrecking ball.

To use an analogy, modding is like a religion. Most of our countries allow freedom of religious expression yes?!!?. Well Bieg is like the atheist who continually runs into every church, temple, synagogue, mosque, etc and shouts "There is no God". He may have a valid point, but it's expression in that particular place of worship does little to enhance peace and goodwill. This is his place, and he should be treated with the same respect we expect in our places. And any way, you've only got to look under his bonnet to realise that Bieg actually worships the Aluminium God.

That said, Bieg - if you are really interested in enhancing the value of your stock S2000 you should be encouraging mods as much as possible. That way your S will be all the rarer

 

All I know is that this thread is threatening...

Threatening to bump the Jeniffer Love Hewitt threat off top spot for most active thread!

Screw you guys, I'm going to go mod mine with some Zaino