S2000 Talk Discussions related to the S2000, its ownership and enthusiasm for it.

Do you guys skip gears when taking it easy

Thread Tools
 
Old Dec 14, 2011 | 04:46 PM
  #61  
ZDan's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,863
Likes: 125
From: Pawtucket, RI
Default

Originally Posted by blizz81
Originally Posted by ZDan' timestamp='1323900091' post='21237607
It is extremely poor practice to coast up to stops. The clutch should be engaged all the times except briefly when changing gears (whether skipping gears or not). Get in the habit of doing keeping the clutch engaged and downshifting (being able to match revs and heel/toe will allow you to downshift from higher revs, otherwise you have to wait until your pretty slow for the gear you're in) while slowing/stopping.
Some of you guys act like we're driving either cars from the 1930s or full-fledged sequential shift race cars. "Extremely poor practice" is pretty strong. If everyone took this to heed on every deceleration/stop, you'd have a lot more people/inexperienced drivers burning their clutches and over-revving from downshifting improperly, or getting into accidents because they're trying to shift down through every gear.
Quite the contrary, what i'm suggesting is not applicable to 1930s cars or sequential shift race cars, but specifically for modern synchromesh manual gearboxes.

It isn't rocket science to drive a normal modern synchromesh gearbox properly, anyone can do it with practice. Anyone can also get into the habit of doing it wrong and never develop proper technique, and I'm sure this is the norm. Doesn't have to be that way.
Reply
Old Dec 14, 2011 | 04:58 PM
  #62  
ZDan's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,863
Likes: 125
From: Pawtucket, RI
Default

Originally Posted by FluKy15
Quoted directly from the thread in the link.
This issue with skipping gears has to do with the inertia carried through the transmission by the input shaft (and clutch disc). Rev matching has nothing to do with input shaft RPM, and does not help. The only exception to this is if you double-clutch in-between the skipped gears.
Rev-matching *does* help, and double-clutching is *never* required outside of exceptional circumstances.
As far as inertia is concerned, you shouldn't be slamming into 2+ gears up or down. Skip shifting is only for benign situations.

I'll just say that if you can skip gears easily without any weirdness, feel free to do so. If the gearbox doesn't like it, it will let you know.
Reply
Old Dec 14, 2011 | 05:13 PM
  #63  
PUNCHIN-IT's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 791
Likes: 0
From: Long Island, New York
Default

Originally Posted by JmanS2k
don't skip gears plz. thx.
LOL I agree with him. Don't do it!
Reply
Old Dec 14, 2011 | 05:22 PM
  #64  
TopGear's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 9,557
Likes: 15
From: MD
Default

Originally Posted by ZDan
Originally Posted by FluKy15' timestamp='1323906207' post='21237960
Quoted directly from the thread in the link.
This issue with skipping gears has to do with the inertia carried through the transmission by the input shaft (and clutch disc). Rev matching has nothing to do with input shaft RPM, and does not help. The only exception to this is if you double-clutch in-between the skipped gears.
Rev-matching *does* help, and double-clutching is *never* required outside of exceptional circumstances.
As far as inertia is concerned, you shouldn't be slamming into 2+ gears up or down. Skip shifting is only for benign situations.

I'll just say that if you can skip gears easily without any weirdness, feel free to do so. If the gearbox doesn't like it, it will let you know.
I'm no mechanical engineer, but I think I have a good handle on how all this works. So please bear with this terrible drawing I just made in paint:

Do you guys skip gears when taking it easy-oqsji.png

With the clutch disengaged, no amount of change in engine speed will affect the speed of the transmission input shaft. It's just going to keep doing its own thing (ignoring some friction forces) until one of two things change its speed:

1- The clutch re-engages and forces the input shaft to match engine speed
or
2- You change gears with the clutch remaining disengaged, in which case the snycros will alter the speed of the input shaft to allow the gears to mesh properly.

No amount of change in engine speed while the clutch is disengaged can help ease stress on the syncros, so rev matching (without double clutching) does nothing to make life easier on the syncros.
Reply
Old Dec 14, 2011 | 06:31 PM
  #65  
KayHow's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Default

ive read about this before. like others say its the syncros. i dont do it since reading about it a couple months ago. i used to. also, another member once said "you paid for 6 gears use them" haha i figured he had a good point
Reply
Old Dec 14, 2011 | 06:52 PM
  #66  
gbaker's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
From: Princeton
Default

I take it easy most of the time on my rig. I always skip gears if I am rolling smoothly. Up and down, and even drop it in neutral when coasting to a light on occasion.
Around 40k on the Tranny lube since the last change and it came out looking like virtually new (I do use the Amsoil oil type which is compatible with yellow metals in our trans.)
I have no apparent change in normal shifting due to synchro wear and with only 73K I easily still have orig clutch and brakes.
If you aren't pushing it I would say there is no problem at all with skipping gears, but matching engine speed to the appropriate gear when going back into gear is a good practice. Or go easy on the clutch engagement.
You do need to drive the car for a reasonable time to judge the engine speed for proper gear engagement at car speed, especially downshifting due to the S2k's tight drive train and its high compression ratio.
Reply
Old Dec 15, 2011 | 01:55 AM
  #67  
FluKy15's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 14,697
Likes: 1
From: Toronto
Default

Originally Posted by ZDan
Originally Posted by blizz81' timestamp='1323905814' post='21237941
[quote name='ZDan' timestamp='1323900091' post='21237607']It is extremely poor practice to coast up to stops. The clutch should be engaged all the times except briefly when changing gears (whether skipping gears or not). Get in the habit of doing keeping the clutch engaged and downshifting (being able to match revs and heel/toe will allow you to downshift from higher revs, otherwise you have to wait until your pretty slow for the gear you're in) while slowing/stopping.
Some of you guys act like we're driving either cars from the 1930s or full-fledged sequential shift race cars. "Extremely poor practice" is pretty strong. If everyone took this to heed on every deceleration/stop, you'd have a lot more people/inexperienced drivers burning their clutches and over-revving from downshifting improperly, or getting into accidents because they're trying to shift down through every gear.
Quite the contrary, what i'm suggesting is not applicable to 1930s cars or sequential shift race cars, but specifically for modern synchromesh manual gearboxes.

It isn't rocket science to drive a normal modern synchromesh gearbox properly, anyone can do it with practice. Anyone can also get into the habit of doing it wrong and never develop proper technique, and I'm sure this is the norm. Doesn't have to be that way.
[/quote]

ZDan has a real point, about having the clutch always engaged while slowing down. Here, if you take a driving test for your drivers license in a standard car, they take points off you for putting it into neutral while slowing down. It is poor practice and generally unsafe. Personally I am always in a gear, but it is not necessary. Its better gas mileage to be in a gear anyways, while slowing down, riding a gear, you use no fuel. Makes no sense to me why people throw it into neutral.
Reply
Old Dec 15, 2011 | 05:19 AM
  #68  
ES2K's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 265
Likes: 13
From: San Jose, CA
Default

Originally Posted by Triple-H
Originally Posted by bmms8' timestamp='1323696019' post='21229627
I never skip gears when upshifting, like many of you, i do not like 5th so i put it in 5th and put it in 6th right after.
I skip upshift frequently, this would be an example
Blast up to 9 grand in 1st, grab second, blast up to nine grand in second, slowly shift over to 4th
It was fun getting up to that speed, and now 4th is all I need so as to not be caught speeding
This is my most common skip shift. And, for the same reason.
Reply
Old Dec 15, 2011 | 06:06 AM
  #69  
ZDan's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,863
Likes: 125
From: Pawtucket, RI
Default

Originally Posted by TopGear
With the clutch disengaged, no amount of change in engine speed will affect the speed of the transmission input shaft. It's just going to keep doing its own thing (ignoring some friction forces)
Frictional forces acting through the clutch while it is disengaged are negligible compared to forces required to drive the car, they are NON-negligible relative to the rotational mass of the input shaft. That's why rev-matching works, and double-clutching is not required.

Rev-matching downshifts is pretty much *necessary* for autoX/track driving, and useful on the street as well.
And, again, double-clutching is wasted effort, totally UNnecessary.
Reply
Old Dec 15, 2011 | 06:38 AM
  #70  
obsess2k'ed's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 597
Likes: 1
From: SF Bay Area
Default

Originally Posted by ZDan
Originally Posted by FluKy15' timestamp='1323906207' post='21237960
Quoted directly from the thread in the link.
This issue with skipping gears has to do with the inertia carried through the transmission by the input shaft (and clutch disc). Rev matching has nothing to do with input shaft RPM, and does not help. The only exception to this is if you double-clutch in-between the skipped gears.
Rev-matching *does* help, and double-clutching is *never* required outside of exceptional circumstances.
Would you mind elaborating on this a little? When would double-clutching be required or helpful?
Reply



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:50 AM.