Finding the limits.
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From: Dry Branch
Originally Posted by TRDLiquidSilver,Apr 3 2008, 10:38 AM
how do you know what the street-intersection looked like at the time of the occurence and what makes RED the captain of driving behavior?
i agree to what RED is saying about testing the cars ability in a controlled enviroment but i wasn't testing my cars ability, i know what the car can and can't do and that was the point of my 1st post. half of the people on this board shouldn't even be driving the S, just because you can drive a manual doesn't mean you know how to drive a sports car.
i agree to what RED is saying about testing the cars ability in a controlled enviroment but i wasn't testing my cars ability, i know what the car can and can't do and that was the point of my 1st post. half of the people on this board shouldn't even be driving the S, just because you can drive a manual doesn't mean you know how to drive a sports car.
, if I were the captian of driving behavior, everyone would be driving like either an asshat or a vintage jackass. 
All I'm saying (and maybe this is the "point" I'm trying to make 
) is that the street is not a good place to be learning the car's (any car's) limits. If one choses to do so anyway, that's their business. 
The number of spins we see reported here show that there are a lot of people who should have been more careful with their S2000, but I won't go so far as to say that they shouldn't be driving the car. It's quite possible to enjoy an S2000 without ever approaching its limits.
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From: Calgary
Originally Posted by RED MX5,Apr 3 2008, 12:07 PM
LOL, I'm not sure I was trying to make a point.
However, I did not realize how hard it would be for others to get a sense of the forces involved; SO, I've added a TrackVision virtual dashboard to the video now, and you can see the forces as measured by my data logger. Same link as before, but I'll repeat it here so you don't have to go back to the previous page to get to it.
Please right-click and save-as... (under 1 Meg)
Looks to me like the lateral forces far exceed the longitudinal forces.
However, I did not realize how hard it would be for others to get a sense of the forces involved; SO, I've added a TrackVision virtual dashboard to the video now, and you can see the forces as measured by my data logger. Same link as before, but I'll repeat it here so you don't have to go back to the previous page to get to it.
Please right-click and save-as... (under 1 Meg)
Looks to me like the lateral forces far exceed the longitudinal forces.
The important thing to notice for less experienced drivers is that your foot remains ON the throttle (in the green) at all times with just minor modulation as you previously indicated. Pausing the video or watching it in slow gives a good opportunity to notice the reactions to breaking traction.
PS A REAL driver could've wagged the tail around that little chicane/cone setup at the end instead of braking so hard.
NO FEAR!
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From: Dry Branch
[QUOTE=S2ksteve1234,Apr 3 2008, 10:59 AM]S02's aren't that great of an autocross tire. I have an AP1, and after I switched to the hankook RS2's 225F 245R, I experienced way better grip and reponsiveness.
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From: Dry Branch
Originally Posted by mlc,Apr 3 2008, 01:58 PM
red mx5, does the color on this image stand for anything? Just didn't know if it was some relation to your speed.
mlc
mlc
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From: Dry Branch
[QUOTE=MikeyCB,Apr 3 2008, 02:19 PM]That dashboard is awesome.
The important thing to notice for less experienced drivers is that your foot remains ON the throttle (in the green) at all times with just minor modulation as you previously indicated.
The important thing to notice for less experienced drivers is that your foot remains ON the throttle (in the green) at all times with just minor modulation as you previously indicated.
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From: Dry Branch
Originally Posted by Rodney,Apr 3 2008, 02:17 PM
bah, i always adhered to " Fast in, Faster out..." 
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From: Dry Branch
Originally Posted by s2000Junky,Apr 3 2008, 01:23 PM
The S is really responsive to throttle steering in how much the car will shift. It was suprising to me when I first purchased the car about 4 years ago, but have since prfected its handling at the limit and find it to be a great asset compared to other more numb cars that only really respond in one way around a turn. To the novice it could be a big problem, but I find the S very balanced and exciting at the limit. You have more option for getting out of trouble and getting into trouble with this car which is why its not a great first rear wheel drive sport car for some. i guess they wanted to broaded the market some and the anwere was the Ap2 handling, which in my opinion leaves some to be desired and most it seems once they get use to its mushy seemingly predictable handling in comparison.
The drift was promptly followed by a full 360.
It was MUCH easier to throttle steer our Jag, but it's more challenging (and hence more fun and rewarding) in the S2000.
I actually find it easier to four wheel drift and throttle steer the AP2's.
(And I wish I were better at it.
)
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Originally Posted by RED MX5,Apr 2 2008, 01:04 PM
I've been following a thread where the topic is "wiggle," and I routinely follow threads that discuss our car's stability, and threads that discuss finding the car's limits, and today, while editing video from last Sunday's autocross, I came across a short clip that seems to address several of these issues. I looked at several older threads to see where it fit best, but it seemed to relate to so many different threads that I couldn't make up my mind, and decided that I'd do better if I just started a new thread.
Last Sunday it was damp, cool (50's), and very windy, so getting heat into our tires was a problem. The surface we were running on was also pretty slick, and grip varied from one section of the course to the next. In the clip (link below) I enter a LONG sweeper with an increasing radius, and the radius increases at a rate that required HARD acceleration, all the way around the turn. The clip shows me pushing it just a tiny bit too hard, and repeatedly breaking traction at the back, recovering, and then doing it all over again. I actually do this three times in a row, though the third wag is so subtle that you might miss it. The fist two wags are obvious, as you can actually see that the car rotates relative to the direction of travel.
I guess I'd like everyone to notice a couple things (and ignore all my mistakes).
1) There is no "snap" to the oversteer. The tail steps out gently and predictably.
2) It is easy to recover. Just *ease* off the throttle, *just enough* to get the tail to tuck back in. As long as you catch the impending slide in time, and respond appropriately, the car will do exactly what you ask.
3) This is, quite frankly, the only way I know to learn a car's limits. To learn the limits, you have to exceed them. With the S2000, exceeding the limits without losing control takes practice, and even with practice there will be times when you won't be able to recover as gracefully as you'd like; SO, the street is not the place to be learning.
Watch this video, then if you're not already tracking or autocrossing, but drive hard on the street, consider going to an autocross and learning your car's limits in a reasonably safe environment.
BTW, this is all in second gear, with speeds at the end of about 60 MPH (top of second gear).
Please right-click and save-as. (File is under 1 meg.
)
Last Sunday it was damp, cool (50's), and very windy, so getting heat into our tires was a problem. The surface we were running on was also pretty slick, and grip varied from one section of the course to the next. In the clip (link below) I enter a LONG sweeper with an increasing radius, and the radius increases at a rate that required HARD acceleration, all the way around the turn. The clip shows me pushing it just a tiny bit too hard, and repeatedly breaking traction at the back, recovering, and then doing it all over again. I actually do this three times in a row, though the third wag is so subtle that you might miss it. The fist two wags are obvious, as you can actually see that the car rotates relative to the direction of travel.
I guess I'd like everyone to notice a couple things (and ignore all my mistakes
).1) There is no "snap" to the oversteer. The tail steps out gently and predictably.
2) It is easy to recover. Just *ease* off the throttle, *just enough* to get the tail to tuck back in. As long as you catch the impending slide in time, and respond appropriately, the car will do exactly what you ask.
3) This is, quite frankly, the only way I know to learn a car's limits. To learn the limits, you have to exceed them. With the S2000, exceeding the limits without losing control takes practice, and even with practice there will be times when you won't be able to recover as gracefully as you'd like; SO, the street is not the place to be learning.
Watch this video, then if you're not already tracking or autocrossing, but drive hard on the street, consider going to an autocross and learning your car's limits in a reasonably safe environment.
BTW, this is all in second gear, with speeds at the end of about 60 MPH (top of second gear).
Please right-click and save-as. (File is under 1 meg.
)one question for you regarding me recent experience. I've had my S (my first RWD car) for a while (since 2005) and been to many autox events as well. I think I am still learning how to better control this car. On one rainy day, I was accelerating smoothly onramp (very generous slope btw). I was doing what I had been told to do, which is to drive/shift smoothly. I engaged the clutch for a 2-3 up-shift in a fairly "lazy" manner, trying to be again smooth, and the rear started to slide wide to the right (I was traveling in a straight line). I caught it with a combination of a bit of gas and countersteering. I wonder would it be better for me to perform a quick shift in a situation like this?
Thanks for your help in advance. I check my alignment and tire pressure regularly (too often actually
)
