Itt we discuss driving technique
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Originally Posted by Ks320,Feb 8 2009, 04:27 AM
second guy ... honestly ... he's quite good imo. I'm just trying to find something to blame on for him
), my guess would be that the track condtions were not optimal. If you look at the trees there are no leaves, meaning that it is early spring/late fall (i.e. colder track temps) and the track even looks like it is damp.
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Originally Posted by iqbad,Feb 8 2009, 01:10 AM
Is it really that important to rev-match that lack of rev-matching will cause crashes like this? The way I think, rev-matching only helps the syncros out in the gearbox. (I mean the heel-toe stuff)
Say for example: I come up fast to a turn, I brake hard and as the cars starts to slow down, I push down the clutch and put in the right gear for the turn. When I enter the turn I stop braking and move my right foot to the gas pedal, now while only turning without any acceleration or braking, I smootly give it some gas and gently let go of the clutch not to have the wheels brake loose.
Is this a bad way to do it?
Say for example: I come up fast to a turn, I brake hard and as the cars starts to slow down, I push down the clutch and put in the right gear for the turn. When I enter the turn I stop braking and move my right foot to the gas pedal, now while only turning without any acceleration or braking, I smootly give it some gas and gently let go of the clutch not to have the wheels brake loose.
Is this a bad way to do it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel-and-toe
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From: The South
Originally Posted by CKit,Feb 7 2009, 03:16 PM
Does anyone have the Best Motoring link to when they had amateurs try to drive the Amuse S2k? I remember the guy who thought he knew how to drive almost spinning on every downshift-rev match.
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It was a great video. He did exactly what the second video driver did. Instead of heel-toeing in a straight line, he rushed his timing a little and had the car turning in (rotating) when he let the clutch out. Same thing as stabbing the throttle or abruptly lifting mid-turn. Car not happy.
Someone, please find that video!
EDIT: It was the J's Racing S2000.
Someone, please find that video!
EDIT: It was the J's Racing S2000.
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From: Rochester, NY
Originally Posted by Ks320,Feb 8 2009, 02:43 AM
it's still (relatively) okay if the driver allows sufficient time in the straight section for the car to re-establish the balance before the turn
Bad shifts don't affect the car's lateral balance ... assuming the steering is dead straight ... of course, I'm only saying this in a technical point of view, given that iqbad asked about whether it is absolutely necessary to rev-match and failure to do so will always lead to a crash like that. So all I'm saying is that it's not, assuming that everything's back to normal before the turn, and that the steering is straight ...
I've sat in relatively advanced drivers on the track who DON'T rev match, and they are still able to achieve pretty good lap times (without crashing). I know that sounds a bit silly, but there are cars out there like M3s don't suffer as much of a jolt as ours if you don't rev-match ...
For some reason, (stock) European cars tend to not jolt as much as most Japanese cars do. I'm not sure if that has to do with the fact that Japanese cars tend to have lighter flywheels
Bad shifts don't affect the car's lateral balance ... assuming the steering is dead straight ... of course, I'm only saying this in a technical point of view, given that iqbad asked about whether it is absolutely necessary to rev-match and failure to do so will always lead to a crash like that. So all I'm saying is that it's not, assuming that everything's back to normal before the turn, and that the steering is straight ...
I've sat in relatively advanced drivers on the track who DON'T rev match, and they are still able to achieve pretty good lap times (without crashing). I know that sounds a bit silly, but there are cars out there like M3s don't suffer as much of a jolt as ours if you don't rev-match ...
For some reason, (stock) European cars tend to not jolt as much as most Japanese cars do. I'm not sure if that has to do with the fact that Japanese cars tend to have lighter flywheels
If you are anywhere near the limit at corner entry a mismatched downshift will result in an instant change of scenary - ususually 180 degrees from where it was a second ago.
Think of non rev matched downshifts as trailing throttle oversteer x10.
Now, if you complete all of your downshifts going perfectly straight then yes you could get away with it. However, by doing so you are not maximizing the ability of the car = slow.
I almost have to laugh as my training was in formula cars with no synchromesh. I had to re-train myself to stop double clutch rev matched downshifts when I went pro racing in full synchro sedan based race cars.
Now there's a skill that is fast becoming lost
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From: Hong Kong
[QUOTE=PDS,Feb 8 2009, 04:28 PM] Rev matching downshifts is a BASIC requirement of track driving. There are no good drivers who don't have it down pat.
If you are anywhere near the limit at corner entry a mismatched downshift will result in an instant change of scenary - ususually 180 degrees from where it was a second ago.
Think of non rev matched downshifts as trailing throttle oversteer x10.
Now, if you complete all of your downshifts going perfectly straight then yes you could get away with it. However, by doing so you are not maximizing the ability of the car = slow.
I almost have to laugh as my training was in formula cars with no synchromesh. I had to re-train myself to stop double clutch rev matched downshifts when I went pro racing in full synchro sedan based race cars.
Now there's a skill that is fast becoming lost
If you are anywhere near the limit at corner entry a mismatched downshift will result in an instant change of scenary - ususually 180 degrees from where it was a second ago.
Think of non rev matched downshifts as trailing throttle oversteer x10.
Now, if you complete all of your downshifts going perfectly straight then yes you could get away with it. However, by doing so you are not maximizing the ability of the car = slow.
I almost have to laugh as my training was in formula cars with no synchromesh. I had to re-train myself to stop double clutch rev matched downshifts when I went pro racing in full synchro sedan based race cars.
Now there's a skill that is fast becoming lost
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From: Rochester, NY
Originally Posted by Ks320,Feb 9 2009, 04:57 AM
Yes, that's what I thought before as well. However, an instructor once drove my car (and also his own Porsche 944) without rev matching, and yet was able to do pretty well. I know this sounds insane ... but yes, I sat in that before. As a benchmark, he did drive with the pros (with modified track dedicated cars) using my bone stock AP2 on Pocono Raceway in 2007. And yes, I understand not-rev-matching would not allow the driver to maximize the time spent on the throttle, and that's basically what I meant earlier.
Anyhow, yes, double clutching is now a extinct skill. I don't do it well myself. Even rev matching, with the silly electronic rev-matching thing on the new 370Z ... I can see that those who can double clutch properly and drive a manual in an old-schooled fashion will be extinct very soon
Anyhow, yes, double clutching is now a extinct skill. I don't do it well myself. Even rev matching, with the silly electronic rev-matching thing on the new 370Z ... I can see that those who can double clutch properly and drive a manual in an old-schooled fashion will be extinct very soon
I have always prided myself on smooth driving techniques - a must in formula or purpose built race cars. What is interesting is that prodution based cars are so much less precise and allow huge inputs (in comparison) with little ill effect.
I've watched in car camera work from the same car I was sharing with another succesfull driver. I could not believe what I was seeing - his inputs were so forceful and his technique would be described as crude, yet the car was so forgiving that he got away with it. If he was in a formula or sports racer he wouldn't have made past the first turn! Ultimately, his style or lack thereof, limits his ability to run at the absolute front. But, this is in a pro series with huge talent in the field. Put him in a club event and he's a hero.
I guess where I'm going is with the advent of rev matching manuals, paddle shifters, ABS, traction control, and the like, the talent to go fast has decreased significantly
You know, come to think of it, that's probably another reason I decided on an S2000. It suffers no fools!
Maybe I'll head back to Vintage racing
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From: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted by PDS,Feb 9 2009, 07:38 AM
It's a strange thing.......I've had the privaledge of racing in select Koni Challenge (Grand Am) events over the past five years driving a BMW E46.
I have always prided myself on smooth driving techniques - a must in formula or purpose built race cars. What is interesting is that prodution based cars are so much less precise and allow huge inputs (in comparison) with little ill effect.
I've watched in car camera work from the same car I was sharing with another succesfull driver. I could not believe what I was seeing - his inputs were so forceful and his technique would be described as crude, yet the car was so forgiving that he got away with it. If he was in a formula or sports racer he wouldn't have made past the first turn! Ultimately, his style or lack thereof, limits his ability to run at the absolute front. But, this is in a pro series with huge talent in the field. Put him in a club event and he's a hero.
I guess where I'm going is with the advent of rev matching manuals, paddle shifters, ABS, traction control, and the like, the talent to go fast has decreased significantly
You know, come to think of it, that's probably another reason I decided on an S2000. It suffers no fools!
Maybe I'll head back to Vintage racing
I have always prided myself on smooth driving techniques - a must in formula or purpose built race cars. What is interesting is that prodution based cars are so much less precise and allow huge inputs (in comparison) with little ill effect.
I've watched in car camera work from the same car I was sharing with another succesfull driver. I could not believe what I was seeing - his inputs were so forceful and his technique would be described as crude, yet the car was so forgiving that he got away with it. If he was in a formula or sports racer he wouldn't have made past the first turn! Ultimately, his style or lack thereof, limits his ability to run at the absolute front. But, this is in a pro series with huge talent in the field. Put him in a club event and he's a hero.
I guess where I'm going is with the advent of rev matching manuals, paddle shifters, ABS, traction control, and the like, the talent to go fast has decreased significantly
You know, come to think of it, that's probably another reason I decided on an S2000. It suffers no fools!
Maybe I'll head back to Vintage racing
I mean their whole advertisement campaign for it was a race car that *anyone* can drive.
whats the future coming too
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From: Dry Branch
Originally Posted by PDS,Feb 9 2009, 10:38 AM
You know, come to think of it, that's probably another reason I decided on an S2000. It suffers no fools!
I also liked the 2nd. generation Corvairs.
