S2000 Engine/Warranty Issue
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Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Sheridan
I'm trying to make sense of this thread. Here's how I put it together.
Fast-miami got an '02 Spa Yellow in the fall of 2002 and had driven it about 2,900 miles. It is unclear to me whether or not he over-revved it during a missed downshift during those 2,900 miles or whether he checked the oil. Other than some problems with the soft top, the car was working fine before December 26th.
In any case, on December 26th he did not speed or race the car. On that day, the engine stalled and he had it flat-bedded to a dealer. The dealer said "the pistons are bent" and the car was over-revved.
Several weeks later, the District Service Manager, a representative of Honda Motor Company evaluated the car and told fast-miami that the car was mis-shifted, over-revved, "causing the head of the pistons to crack or break and be embedded between the cylinder."
Fast-miami understands that the car has a rev-limiter but thinks that "the engine/car/whatever does not allow you to exceed the red zone. However, this was not the case when I drove the vehicle." Fast-miami is correct that the S2000 has a rev limiter. This is a fuel cut-off when the driver tries to accelerate past the red-line. It does not prevent over-revving from a missed downshift when momentum from the vehicle tries to drive the engine past 9,000 rpm. A fuel flow of zero won't prevent this kind of over-revving.
So far from this thread I cannot tell what actually broke in the engine, whether or not the car was over-revved during a mis-shift sometime before December 26th, and whether the car was run without enough oil.
It is pretty disappointing to have a new car with less than 2,900 miles on it go bad, and even worse to hear from the dealer or the manufacturer that they think you caused $15,000.00 of damage to your new car.
Fast-miami, the DSM is American Honda Motors's representative. If the repair is covered by warranty, the $15,000 (maybe $19,000 maybe $11,000) comes out of AHM's pocket. The dealerships are not owned by AHM. They are franchised by AHM. The dealer stands to profit from performing the repair, whether you pay for it or AHM pays for it. Naturally, no dealer can authorize the manufacturer to pay for a repair. That is up to Honda. Sometimes, AHM will do that over the phone on their Honda-Tech service support line. Sometimes the DSM will do that in the field. In general, the DSM has the final say. That is his job. The same DSM covers all the dealers in your region.
If your car was never over-revved and never run with too little oil, then AHM should pay for the repair. If your car was run with too little oil or was over-revved and broke as a result to that, you'd be lucky to have AHM cover it. Some owners have been blessed with that luck.
If your car was never over-revved, but Honda maintains that it was, you might have to take your dispute to court. With $19,000 at stake, and each side thinking it is right, the legal system might provide the only remedy.
I'm sorry you think that the rev limiter is designed to prevent all over-revs. It is not. It is designed to prevent over-revving by giving the accelerator too much gasoline and accelerating past 9,000 rpm. It works great for that. However, if you are traveling fast and downshift into the wrong gear, something has to give. Usually that something is a very expensive piece of fine machinery.
Fast-miami got an '02 Spa Yellow in the fall of 2002 and had driven it about 2,900 miles. It is unclear to me whether or not he over-revved it during a missed downshift during those 2,900 miles or whether he checked the oil. Other than some problems with the soft top, the car was working fine before December 26th.
In any case, on December 26th he did not speed or race the car. On that day, the engine stalled and he had it flat-bedded to a dealer. The dealer said "the pistons are bent" and the car was over-revved.
Several weeks later, the District Service Manager, a representative of Honda Motor Company evaluated the car and told fast-miami that the car was mis-shifted, over-revved, "causing the head of the pistons to crack or break and be embedded between the cylinder."
Fast-miami understands that the car has a rev-limiter but thinks that "the engine/car/whatever does not allow you to exceed the red zone. However, this was not the case when I drove the vehicle." Fast-miami is correct that the S2000 has a rev limiter. This is a fuel cut-off when the driver tries to accelerate past the red-line. It does not prevent over-revving from a missed downshift when momentum from the vehicle tries to drive the engine past 9,000 rpm. A fuel flow of zero won't prevent this kind of over-revving.
So far from this thread I cannot tell what actually broke in the engine, whether or not the car was over-revved during a mis-shift sometime before December 26th, and whether the car was run without enough oil.
It is pretty disappointing to have a new car with less than 2,900 miles on it go bad, and even worse to hear from the dealer or the manufacturer that they think you caused $15,000.00 of damage to your new car.
Fast-miami, the DSM is American Honda Motors's representative. If the repair is covered by warranty, the $15,000 (maybe $19,000 maybe $11,000) comes out of AHM's pocket. The dealerships are not owned by AHM. They are franchised by AHM. The dealer stands to profit from performing the repair, whether you pay for it or AHM pays for it. Naturally, no dealer can authorize the manufacturer to pay for a repair. That is up to Honda. Sometimes, AHM will do that over the phone on their Honda-Tech service support line. Sometimes the DSM will do that in the field. In general, the DSM has the final say. That is his job. The same DSM covers all the dealers in your region.
If your car was never over-revved and never run with too little oil, then AHM should pay for the repair. If your car was run with too little oil or was over-revved and broke as a result to that, you'd be lucky to have AHM cover it. Some owners have been blessed with that luck.
If your car was never over-revved, but Honda maintains that it was, you might have to take your dispute to court. With $19,000 at stake, and each side thinking it is right, the legal system might provide the only remedy.
I'm sorry you think that the rev limiter is designed to prevent all over-revs. It is not. It is designed to prevent over-revving by giving the accelerator too much gasoline and accelerating past 9,000 rpm. It works great for that. However, if you are traveling fast and downshift into the wrong gear, something has to give. Usually that something is a very expensive piece of fine machinery.
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From: Port-au-Prince, Haiti
First Off....I hope everyone gets their cars repaired without any further trauma. I have had dealer problems once and they were mind-numbing...wouldn't wish it on anyone. I have sat down and read this entire thread through and through in earnest and great interest. I sold my '02 S2000 to my dad after he managed to get tapped (read: hit REALLY hard) in a parking lot. At that point the car wasn't my daily driver. However, if I replace my old one with a new one it will become the car I drive daily (as much as one who walks to work drives daily anyway).
All of the information in this thread interested me greatly as it relates to reliability in daily use. Now, I know how to drive sticks...I have raced sticks (track racing....street racing is for wanna-be Speed Racers and show-offs) and I have miss shifted at speed, but I have never blown a motor in the manner described in the previous pages. I agree with Destiny in thinking that some form of preventative measure makes sense and would more than likely save Honda thousands of $$$ in good-will repairs, and warranty repairs alike. However, Charlie is right in saying a lot of people just don't want the car thinking for them and may find the idea insulting (though I think that is stupid). The only thing I could think of that didn't involve more electronics or engineering work would be to stiffen the springs in the transimssion assembly. The result would be like giving a gun a heavier trigger pull. If you just add a little more resistance (not alot) dropping into 2nd instead of 4th would be much harder to do unintentionally. Then again...this completely ruins the fluidity and responsiveness anyone who has driven the car has grown to love. I thought people loved this car (as I do) because it DOESN'T have a notchy shifter? I missed shifted into second once going slowly after I just got the car....no harm done....The tranny in an S2000 is by far and large the smoothest I have every experienced. I'd hate to lose that.
Ride on fellas...hope to be back in the saddle soon!
--Jim
All of the information in this thread interested me greatly as it relates to reliability in daily use. Now, I know how to drive sticks...I have raced sticks (track racing....street racing is for wanna-be Speed Racers and show-offs) and I have miss shifted at speed, but I have never blown a motor in the manner described in the previous pages. I agree with Destiny in thinking that some form of preventative measure makes sense and would more than likely save Honda thousands of $$$ in good-will repairs, and warranty repairs alike. However, Charlie is right in saying a lot of people just don't want the car thinking for them and may find the idea insulting (though I think that is stupid). The only thing I could think of that didn't involve more electronics or engineering work would be to stiffen the springs in the transimssion assembly. The result would be like giving a gun a heavier trigger pull. If you just add a little more resistance (not alot) dropping into 2nd instead of 4th would be much harder to do unintentionally. Then again...this completely ruins the fluidity and responsiveness anyone who has driven the car has grown to love. I thought people loved this car (as I do) because it DOESN'T have a notchy shifter? I missed shifted into second once going slowly after I just got the car....no harm done....The tranny in an S2000 is by far and large the smoothest I have every experienced. I'd hate to lose that.
Ride on fellas...hope to be back in the saddle soon!
--Jim
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From: san diego
Ok Honda is pissing me off now....I got the report from the intial dealer I took the car to...and it says oil levels were normal...the second dealer says the oil levels were low upon recieval...ARE YOU GUYS FU&^*^ING IDIOTS? How can one say good and another say low...of course the second will be slightly low cuz the first opened the engine up and might have lost oil there. Honda is saying it is out of their hands because there has already been a ruling by the rep...I'm thinking...of seriously suing the pants off of honda...they are morons and need to be punished...they have the nerve to tell me I need to take better care of my cars! come look at my garage and see that half of it is filled with car cleaners and automotive products...come see my other cars and the condition they are in. I'm sorry had to vent a little....I'll be back...
it up FOR you?
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From: Miami
Barry, you make sense in what you say, however I do not believe in dishing 36K and then another 14K or so 4 something I know I didn't do. What I understand from the DSM is that the piston head (if I am using the right terminology) broke and is embedded between the wall and cylinder chamber bc of mis-shifting that caused the car to overrev beyond 12000 RPMS. The other dealer is doing me a favor, they know the first dealer could have done more 4 me bc of past buying relationships. However, the Serv Manager there has a discriminating problem, of course its hard 4 me 2 prove that..... Annyway, I know that I did not do wrong, and continue to feel that it is a manufactures defect. I have not checked the oil, but I will when I visit the dealership within a day or two.
The other dealer has a very good working relationship with the DSM and I am calling on a favor from the dealer.....long story. Bottom line. I feel as many others do with this dilemma, is that HONDA should take some effort in correcting this problem but at the same time not jeopardizing the handability of the S2. Other efforts can be taken, to educate even those that are experienced how to properly up/down shift.
The other dealer has a very good working relationship with the DSM and I am calling on a favor from the dealer.....long story. Bottom line. I feel as many others do with this dilemma, is that HONDA should take some effort in correcting this problem but at the same time not jeopardizing the handability of the S2. Other efforts can be taken, to educate even those that are experienced how to properly up/down shift.
Thread Starter
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From: Miami
to Spa and Mav, believe it or not, Braman is and has provided a lack of service to their clientele. They feel that-that they have too many clients and can lose some here and there. Heard directly from the salesmen mouth who sold me the car. Notice how they barely budge on the price, and always want to know if you are trading a car prior to selling you one... they make more money on the front and back end.
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From: Miami
SanMarino, I wonder if you say that bc you work or do business with HONDA.....hope this never happens to you. Ignorance is only for those who do not recognize that a problem exists, stubberness is for those who think nothing is ever anyone elses fault.
