S2000 vs Miata: driving at "the limit"
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I think the problem lies not with the discussed bias towards oversteer, may it exist or not, but with the transition between the states.
In an early AP1, such as the one I have, going from understeer or neutral to oversteer is INCREDIBLY fast.
It may be predictable, but on a tight road with varying conditions, the prediction sometimes sounds like: "Dude, you just may _not_ catch the next one...".
This is why there's a certain tension to driving close to the limit in an early MY S2000.
In an early AP1, such as the one I have, going from understeer or neutral to oversteer is INCREDIBLY fast.
It may be predictable, but on a tight road with varying conditions, the prediction sometimes sounds like: "Dude, you just may _not_ catch the next one...".
This is why there's a certain tension to driving close to the limit in an early MY S2000.
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Originally Posted by Alan in Nevada,Feb 14 2008, 09:39 PM
Was it an "early" or a "late" S2000?
I came into a corner, downshift to second, apex, begin to get on the throttle to come out and I had too much angle with the steering. I wasn't even driving the car hard, took the turn much slower than I usually do.
I'm not Mario Andretti, but I'm far from a bad driver and there was absolutely nothing I could have done to stop the spin. My buddy was in the car and said he couldn't believe it had happened as everything was fluid and there were no jerky inputs or clodfootedness. I could see if I threw it into the corner and pushed the loud pedal all the way down, but it surprised me.
I'm not at all trying to condemn the car or say that it's unsafe or scary at the limit, just that in this particular case, once the car went, it was gone. It's a fantastic car, with the most amazing gearbox put into a production car, a fantastic interior, great build quality and sure it doesn't pull like a big V8, but I didn't have any issues with the lack of low end torque, plus, it sounds and feels amazing when running to redline.
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From: WV Pan Handle
Originally Posted by Bochet,Feb 15 2008, 10:04 AM
I came into a corner, downshift to second, apex, begin to get on the throttle to come out and I had too much angle with the steering. I wasn't even driving the car hard, took the turn much slower than I usually do.
As far as oversteer in the AP1; The S2000 has very quick polar movement, and not enough steering lock. Given that I would much prefer a slight understeer bias. The main reason we're all paying such high insurance is because Honda put out a car that would bite inexperienced drivers. They have corrected this in MY02 then again in MY04 and again in MY06 (with VSA) and yet again in MY08, but the insurance companies are still charging high rates.
As to which year has the best balance, MY06 ofcourse
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Originally Posted by Bochet,Feb 15 2008, 07:04 AM
2005. It was, as I stated, on a cold road at night.
I came into a corner, downshift to second, apex, begin to get on the throttle to come out and I had too much angle with the steering. I wasn't even driving the car hard, took the turn much slower than I usually do.
I'm not Mario Andretti, but I'm far from a bad driver and there was absolutely nothing I could have done to stop the spin. My buddy was in the car and said he couldn't believe it had happened as everything was fluid and there were no jerky inputs or clodfootedness. I could see if I threw it into the corner and pushed the loud pedal all the way down, but it surprised me.
I'm not at all trying to condemn the car or say that it's unsafe or scary at the limit, just that in this particular case, once the car went, it was gone. It's a fantastic car, with the most amazing gearbox put into a production car, a fantastic interior, great build quality and sure it doesn't pull like a big V8, but I didn't have any issues with the lack of low end torque, plus, it sounds and feels amazing when running to redline.
I came into a corner, downshift to second, apex, begin to get on the throttle to come out and I had too much angle with the steering. I wasn't even driving the car hard, took the turn much slower than I usually do.
I'm not Mario Andretti, but I'm far from a bad driver and there was absolutely nothing I could have done to stop the spin. My buddy was in the car and said he couldn't believe it had happened as everything was fluid and there were no jerky inputs or clodfootedness. I could see if I threw it into the corner and pushed the loud pedal all the way down, but it surprised me.
I'm not at all trying to condemn the car or say that it's unsafe or scary at the limit, just that in this particular case, once the car went, it was gone. It's a fantastic car, with the most amazing gearbox put into a production car, a fantastic interior, great build quality and sure it doesn't pull like a big V8, but I didn't have any issues with the lack of low end torque, plus, it sounds and feels amazing when running to redline.
When I took my MY03 out to an autocross for the first time, I kept spinning at this one, long, right hander. At first I was giving too much throttle, then I was carrying to much speed into the corner. I then tried to take it extremely slow and not change the steering input, and I still spun. All of course were due to driver error. So I then got a very experienced driver (he's one of the fastest guys in a NA Miata) and had him drive the course with me as the passenger. His first time driving my S (he's driven other S's before) on pretty worn tires, without even knowing what the tire pressures were. He got into that same corner, the tail kicked out and he just got it to tuck back into place using the throttle and minute steering inputs. Beautifully done. I knew the car's abilities were much greater than mine, but I didn't know by how much. Now I do.
FWIW, I share a NA miata with a friend, and when I drove that car at the same auto-x, it was much easier to control at the limit. It's probably more accurate to say that it was more forgiving. Part of the issue with the AP1 is that if you're at slow engine speeds (<6K rpm), it's tougher to balance the car with the throttle.
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downshift was well before the spin, on entry into the turn, long before the apex.
too much throttle with too much steering angle on too cold a road. i'll tell you what, it's a good performance modification, my wallet is significantly lighter now!
too much throttle with too much steering angle on too cold a road. i'll tell you what, it's a good performance modification, my wallet is significantly lighter now!
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From: Rapid City, South Dakota
Originally Posted by RED MX5,Feb 12 2008, 07:52 PM
I've seen evidance to the contrary. Back in 1971 I designed a driver training course for Wurtsmith AFB in Oscoda Michigan. The request came from the base commander, who, after seeing his first autocross, felt that knowing the limits of thier cars would be a big advantage to any driver, because it increases the chance that they'll be able to avoid an accident, or at least minimize the impact(s). The course was designed specifically to teach people the limits of their daily drivers.
The base commander was so impressed with the course that he decided to make it mandatory for anyone who wanted to drive on the base, but as you might expect, this resulted in a major backlash, from people who though it was crazy to take their own cars out on a runway and experience loss of control. LOL, I still can't believe he didn't anticipate the backlash. Anyway, he had to back off, and merely required that everyone who was going to drive on the base had to attend the course, and do a ride through, even if it was in someone else's car. As it turned out, the vast majority of the people who opted to ride through the course decided to drive through it after experiencing it, because most of them could see the benefits.
And the benefits were (drum roll
), our base ended up having the lowest accident rate in all of SAC, by an order of magnitude. After only three months, the low accident rate was getting so much attention that COMSAC (Commander, SAC) had to visit to see what we were doing, giving my career a big kick start, and the course itself was actually adopted by the Michigan State Troupers for their training course.
Drivers who know the limits of their car are better drivers, and safer drivers, whether they're on the street, or the track. A better driver is a better driver, no matter where he's driving.
The base commander was so impressed with the course that he decided to make it mandatory for anyone who wanted to drive on the base, but as you might expect, this resulted in a major backlash, from people who though it was crazy to take their own cars out on a runway and experience loss of control. LOL, I still can't believe he didn't anticipate the backlash. Anyway, he had to back off, and merely required that everyone who was going to drive on the base had to attend the course, and do a ride through, even if it was in someone else's car. As it turned out, the vast majority of the people who opted to ride through the course decided to drive through it after experiencing it, because most of them could see the benefits.
And the benefits were (drum roll
), our base ended up having the lowest accident rate in all of SAC, by an order of magnitude. After only three months, the low accident rate was getting so much attention that COMSAC (Commander, SAC) had to visit to see what we were doing, giving my career a big kick start, and the course itself was actually adopted by the Michigan State Troupers for their training course.Drivers who know the limits of their car are better drivers, and safer drivers, whether they're on the street, or the track. A better driver is a better driver, no matter where he's driving.
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From: San Diego, Ca
I think either car makes a great DD... I've driven S2000's and I've owned my NA miata for over 8 years now. The only thing I feel the stock miata really lacks power. I fixed this problem...
Oh, and the people who call the miata "gay" or call the S2000 "the mans miata" should re-think this.. especially when you get your ass handed to you on the track by a girly car Both are great cars.. to each their own.
Oh, and the people who call the miata "gay" or call the S2000 "the mans miata" should re-think this.. especially when you get your ass handed to you on the track by a girly car
Both are great cars.. to each their own.
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Another this to consider is that there will be no more new S2000's and Miatas are a dime a dozen. I got my 06 S2000 this year and I think the Honda is a classic that we will all be glad we bought and wish we had not sold if we do in 10 years I don't think we would feel that way about a Miata even though they are great cars. Oh did I tell you that the Honda has more power and is faster and better looking BUY THE HONDA
Troy
BUY THE HONDATroy
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From: London
I've just sold my NA 1.6 turbo after 4 years of ownership. It was running 15psi of boost ~ 220rwhp. It had Tein coilovers, uprated cams, bigger brakes etc etc - Now i've got a MY00 AP1 and would never swap it for my old miata. The S2k is a better car most of the time and the engine note is just so addictive. I still cant get my head round an engine that is still pulling at 9k rpms.
I'm hooked
I'm hooked