[QUOTE=Hwy 17,Feb 14 2008, 02:51 PM]
Now I don't know if there are manual Prius's out there and that may explain why - but I was there and you weren't.

 

I've gotta agree with REDMX5 here. I owned (and tracked) an 04 S2k and, about a year back, instructed a student with an 01 S2k. As I recall, the two cars felt night-and-day different. While I don't remember the 01 to have a pronounced steady-state oversteer bias (and I also don;t recall it having anywhere near the torque needed to induce power oversteer, I DO recall that it felt extremely skittish in transition and was extremely sensitive to trailbraking. I also remember that it was at a Lotus club event, so I was hopping from my car (an 05 Elise) to the S2k and the S2k was much more skittish than the Elise, and the Elise, while stable for a mid-engined car, has a LOT of play in the back if you want it to (although the base package Elises are surprisingly biased toward understeer).

I'm not sure that the debate about whether or not an s2k has "terminal" or "too much" oversteer is really appropriate -- those definitions largely depend on the skill and needs of the driver. A better comparison might be *relative* tendency toward controllable oversteer, in which case I'd say that any year Miata is more controllable at the limit than any S2k I've been in (which ends at the '04 model year), as is a 350Z. The Elise is, IMHO, an interesting comparison because in some ways, though the feel is different, the tendency to snap under trailbraking is largely similar. Personally, I feel the rearward weight bias in the Elise/Exige gives you more options, but YMMV of course.

All that said, I'll reiterate that I think just about all of us are talking about handling at limits that really should never be explored on a public road, and I think the fear of a normal driver on a normal road really isn't likely to get bitten by the S2000. Even an early AP1.

 

Never owned a Miata but test drove a 1st gen back when they were new....loved the tranny. I did own a FD RX7 for several years which still can be considered one of the best pure Japanese sports cars ever. My dream car. A Timeless design, at least I think so. Mazda makes great sports cars but what differentiates the Honda (S2000) is the quality, Honda, to me at least, has the best build quality, very European. THe RX7 was great, and I won't even harp on the motor, I loved the rotary, but for a car that was close to $40K in the early nineties had a very cheap quality to it. I've never had that feeling with Honda's, and I have owned three Accords (just bought the wife a 2008), 1st gen 3.2TL, and an Integra GSR. Over 15 years of Hondas and all I thought were built better than the "ultimate" Japanese sports car.

BTW I love my "S". I have an '04 with no VSA and never felt uncomfortable even in a hard rain.

Sorry, if this seems incoherent, but work + grad school = Maker's Mark for a late nite toddy

 

[QUOTE=UKXotics,Feb 14 2008, 10:23 PM]I've gotta agree with REDMX5 here.

 

This is where you are getting it wrong. The early AP1's (MY00-01 cars) WILL lose traction in the back first during steady state cornering. UK alignment reduces this tendency slightly, but they will still leave a skid pad circle with the back tires operating at substantially larger slip angles than the front tires. It is true that you can still get the car to do whatever you like, as long as you're not trying to get a repeal on the laws of physics, but the early AP1's always leave brake lose in the back first, unless the front tires are overloaded with excessive braking force. Get an early AP1 on a skid pad, and see for yourself. If the early cars were truely neutral, you could leave the skid pad any one of three ways. As you approach the traction limit and continue to pick up speed, you could easily shift a little too much weight off the front tires, and have them slide first, or you could exceed the available grip at the back with too much acceleration, or if you were smooth enough with the acceleration (something that is not really very hard to do) you will slide off the circle with all four tires operting at identical slip angles. That is the very definition of neutral handling. Oversteer means that the back tires are operating at larger slip angles than the front tires, and understeer means the opposite. Because the early AP1's always slide tail first under steady state cornering conditions, it is incorrect to say that they have neutral handling.

This does not mean that the car is uncontrolable or anything like that, so if you think that's what I'm saying, you're misunderstanding. A small amount of oversteer is not at all hard to control, and like understeer, as long as it's not excessive, a good driver will still be able to get the car to understeer or oversteer at will. It's simply harder to get the early AP1's to push the front tires than any other modern car, becaue they have "terminal oversteer" (which means that the back tires exceecd their peak grip before the front tires do, causing the back tires to assume much larger slip angles than the front tires, as the car goes from steady state cornering to sliding. I can't convince you with arguments, but if you'll get an early AP1 (bone stock and all original) on a skid pad and try it for yourself, you'll see. Use the standard Honda alignment, not the UK specs.

 

Just so no one misunderstands, I want to repat this in a place where it won't be overlooked. Just because the early AP1's have a stronger bias toward oversteer than any other modern car does not mean that they have flawed handling, are dangerous, or are unpredictable or hard to control. They have great handling which is very predictable, and with a little practice, anyone can learn to make the little cars dance. This is just as true of the earliest cars as it is of the latest cars (and possibly more so), but a great deal depends on the drivers skill level. Understeer is a stable condition. The front tires slide, and scrub off speed, usually rapidly, until the car slows enough to get grip, so even if the driver does nothing (you should reduce the steering lock) the condition does not get worse. With oversteer, the driver turns in, then the tail slides, and the car turns in even more, due to the slide. The additional turn in uses up more grip, and the back end slides more. If the driver does nothing, the spin makes itself worse, so it is considered to be an unstable condition. However, tipping the wings of an aircraft upward makes the aircraft more stable, while tiping them down leads to instability. LOL, I'll let one of the aero guys explain why this is so, but just take a look at a fighter aircraft. The wings almost always tip downward, to create a situation where once the pilot starts to bank into a turn, the aircraft wants to bank in even harder and faster. The harder it banks, the harder it wants to bank, and that's the same thing you have with oversteer. A good pilot or a good driver can (sometimes, but not always) use a little instability to good advantage, because for the good pilot or driver, it can make the vehicle more responsive. It's also more fun, as long as you deal with it properly.

As to whether or not there is "too much oversteer" in the early cars, that depends entirely on the driver. The fact that it has been too much for many is clear by the number of spin threads we've seen over the years. The fact that not everyone who pushes their AP1 to the limit spins out, pretty well proves that it can be controlled, and frankly, it's not that hard. As I have said many times before, all it takes is a little finesse (and a little understanding). That's true of any car, and the higher the cars performance, the more important finesse (and a little understanding) becomes. There is no reason to be afraid of an S2000. Any S2000. Just don't be an idiot, and don't drive the car at speeds that exceed your skill level. Just be reasonable, and you have nothing at all to worry about.

 

Was it an "early" or a "late" S2000?

 

Go to your local library and check out the current and prior issue of Road&Track magazine. You will find that we are becoming plagued by 4 and 5-pasenger "rice rockets" that will do the 1/4-mile in under 14 sec.'s. By no means are they sports cars, but don't get in a stop-light drag race with them if you are in an S --- and especially a Miata.

 

I had a 2001SE BRG miata. It was sweet car and incredibly safe (walked away from a head on collision with light pole after being run off the road). I got plenty of compliments from real car enthusiasts. The only people that made gay comments where young rice rocket posers in civics. That said, I chose an S2000 for my replacement DD car. I'm thinking of buying a used 2nd gen MX5 for auto-x. It is hard to compare the two. Just test drive them both and make a choice.

 

[QUOTE=RED MX5,Feb 14 2008, 08:53 PM]Absolutely!