Why Blow?
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Joined: Nov 2001
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From: :spam:u
I obviously am in the NA camp.
My reasons;
Why take the worlds premier NA engine at 120HP/Liter and turn it into a mediocre forced induction engine?
Why give up a warranty on a car that you bought to drive hard?
Why kill the resale value of your car?
Why do something that will decrease the longevity and reliability of an engine while also voiding the warranty and paying big bucks to do it to boot?
Adding more HP and torque will put more strain on the rest of the driveline which also won't be covered under the warranty.
The F20C engine was designed with excellent throttle response as an important consideration. (This is as reported in the SAE design paper submitted about the development of the engine). As the car is so well ballanced and weight transfer and suspension loading are so critical to the handling, controlling this with the throttle is KEY. Doing anything to screw up the throttle response will work against you in the handling department and consequently with the enjoyment of the car as a well ballanced automobile.
Lastly;
It goes against the spirit of the design and the intentions of the designers.
Honda as a company and Soichiro Honda as an engine man never believed nor liked forced induction engines. He (and they) considered it a crude (almost dishonorable) way to develop HP. The Honda way was and is to out-engineer the compitition not just dial up the boost. They designed good forced induction race engines when they had to but that was because the engine formulas required them. The Hallmark of almost all Honda performance engines have been HP by high RPMs, not forced induction.
Soichiro Honda would never have wanted the S2000 to be forced induction.
I shall leave mine as God and Soichiro intended it to be.
My reasons;
Why take the worlds premier NA engine at 120HP/Liter and turn it into a mediocre forced induction engine?
Why give up a warranty on a car that you bought to drive hard?
Why kill the resale value of your car?
Why do something that will decrease the longevity and reliability of an engine while also voiding the warranty and paying big bucks to do it to boot?
Adding more HP and torque will put more strain on the rest of the driveline which also won't be covered under the warranty.
The F20C engine was designed with excellent throttle response as an important consideration. (This is as reported in the SAE design paper submitted about the development of the engine). As the car is so well ballanced and weight transfer and suspension loading are so critical to the handling, controlling this with the throttle is KEY. Doing anything to screw up the throttle response will work against you in the handling department and consequently with the enjoyment of the car as a well ballanced automobile.
Lastly;
It goes against the spirit of the design and the intentions of the designers.
Honda as a company and Soichiro Honda as an engine man never believed nor liked forced induction engines. He (and they) considered it a crude (almost dishonorable) way to develop HP. The Honda way was and is to out-engineer the compitition not just dial up the boost. They designed good forced induction race engines when they had to but that was because the engine formulas required them. The Hallmark of almost all Honda performance engines have been HP by high RPMs, not forced induction.
Soichiro Honda would never have wanted the S2000 to be forced induction.
I shall leave mine as God and Soichiro intended it to be.
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,768
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From: Southwest Florida
F the warranty
F the intentions of the designers
F the costs
F the resale value of the car
F the world's premier NA engine w/ 120hp/liter
F the drivetrain (FYI, the drivetrain is fine at 330hp unless you are doing dumps all the time)
If you can see yourself agreeing with me then...
Turbo is where it's at
I guess that's why there is only two of them (Speedcraft's anyways!!)
Chris
F the intentions of the designers
F the costs
F the resale value of the car
F the world's premier NA engine w/ 120hp/liter
F the drivetrain (FYI, the drivetrain is fine at 330hp unless you are doing dumps all the time)
If you can see yourself agreeing with me then...
Turbo is where it's at
I guess that's why there is only two of them (Speedcraft's anyways!!)
Chris
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 163
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From: Endicott
If I had the money I would do it. It's hard for me to relate to the Honda engineers intent discussion. They have may design requirements that are not all clearly in line with the user (cost, produciblity,product branding ect) They created a beautiful car and I love it, but I would like 100+ more HP and Mugen is just to expensive...I don't think Comptech is the answer so I will keep saving. But in the end......to each his own.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 609
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From: Rockville
because I could - never had a FI car.
If I wasn't on this forum, I wouldn't have even given a thought to the drivetrain being a weakness. Also wouldn't have given a thought to the clutch being a weakness, but have experienced that directly as have many others, both FI and NA.
Haven't tracked the car, not likely that I will anytime soon (I keep hopes that I will someday have time). I Don't street race, although on rare occasions there is another willing participant for "rolling sprints"; traffic is so bad around here, there is little opportunity to do anything like this sanely and I have been staying sane lately. I have even slowed way down on doing the occasional high rpm clutch drop - maybe once in the last three months.
One thing for certain: when SCed VTEC kicks in, I believe I can leave all but a very few cars behind.
If I wasn't on this forum, I wouldn't have even given a thought to the drivetrain being a weakness. Also wouldn't have given a thought to the clutch being a weakness, but have experienced that directly as have many others, both FI and NA.
Haven't tracked the car, not likely that I will anytime soon (I keep hopes that I will someday have time). I Don't street race, although on rare occasions there is another willing participant for "rolling sprints"; traffic is so bad around here, there is little opportunity to do anything like this sanely and I have been staying sane lately. I have even slowed way down on doing the occasional high rpm clutch drop - maybe once in the last three months.
One thing for certain: when SCed VTEC kicks in, I believe I can leave all but a very few cars behind.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 811
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From: Tampa
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bieg
[B]Lastly;
It goes against the spirit of the design and the intentions of the designers.
Honda as a company and Soichiro Honda as an engine man never believed nor liked forced induction engines.
[B]Lastly;
It goes against the spirit of the design and the intentions of the designers.
Honda as a company and Soichiro Honda as an engine man never believed nor liked forced induction engines.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 894
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From: :spam:u
Originally posted by ChrisD
In addition, I just have this one small comment: Why value S. Honda's desire to create this engine as it is? To me, if you buy a house from someone, and you love the house, but would prefer it in a different color, paint it! If you want the 2 car garage to be a one car garage and extend the house into the previously unused space, do it! If you have the means to extend upon the house, do it! People don't poopoo these ideas out of respect for the architect. Why shouldn't we build upon the foundations Honda has provided for us and make cars that fit our lifestyles and desires?
In addition, I just have this one small comment: Why value S. Honda's desire to create this engine as it is? To me, if you buy a house from someone, and you love the house, but would prefer it in a different color, paint it! If you want the 2 car garage to be a one car garage and extend the house into the previously unused space, do it! If you have the means to extend upon the house, do it! People don't poopoo these ideas out of respect for the architect. Why shouldn't we build upon the foundations Honda has provided for us and make cars that fit our lifestyles and desires?
Just a question;
How many forced induction Boxster S's are out there running around?
I think one of the problems with the S2000 is that too many people can afford it and because they can they have that "import scene" mentality and treat it like the "ultimate Civic".
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,263
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From: On the lakefront...
Wow, several posts from Bieg and it's still not locked...miracles never cease!
OK, a couple a of things, ChrisD, that was the kind of response that I was interested in. Let me start out by reiterating that I couldn't care less what anyone chooses to do with their own car, house, boat, whatever...it's COMPLETELY your own decision and you won't get criticism from me on any of that. So, ChrisD, you points are very well taken and I understand...and all along, I knew the simple answer would be that people who want boost just want to go faster. That's the long and short of it and that is something I totally understand.
As for Mr. Honda's role in all of this...I don't know what he would have thought about boosting this car, as he passed in 1991...he didn't have a hand in developing anything that I know of for the S2000. Yes, for previous generation S cars, sure...but not for this car. He was a very ingenious and brilliant man, who also was a tinkerer extraordinaire...but I cannot speak for him and what he would think about the topic at hand. When we met with the two Honda engineers in Tokyo who were leads in the S2000 project, we asked them a question about how they perceived modifications in general...they pretty much just shrugged their shoulders and said something like, 'it's your car, do with it what you like' And quite honestly, I believe that Mr. Honda would have had that same attitude...
That said, I think certain cars lend themselves to boost and some don't. Cars with high compression, like the S2000, IMO, are not good candidates for boost. I think cars are best suited for boost are cars that had that possiblity in mind when the car/engine was being designed. And "TRD" of Honda would be the place for such componentry.
[QUOTE]
F the warranty
OK, a couple a of things, ChrisD, that was the kind of response that I was interested in. Let me start out by reiterating that I couldn't care less what anyone chooses to do with their own car, house, boat, whatever...it's COMPLETELY your own decision and you won't get criticism from me on any of that. So, ChrisD, you points are very well taken and I understand...and all along, I knew the simple answer would be that people who want boost just want to go faster. That's the long and short of it and that is something I totally understand.
As for Mr. Honda's role in all of this...I don't know what he would have thought about boosting this car, as he passed in 1991...he didn't have a hand in developing anything that I know of for the S2000. Yes, for previous generation S cars, sure...but not for this car. He was a very ingenious and brilliant man, who also was a tinkerer extraordinaire...but I cannot speak for him and what he would think about the topic at hand. When we met with the two Honda engineers in Tokyo who were leads in the S2000 project, we asked them a question about how they perceived modifications in general...they pretty much just shrugged their shoulders and said something like, 'it's your car, do with it what you like' And quite honestly, I believe that Mr. Honda would have had that same attitude...
That said, I think certain cars lend themselves to boost and some don't. Cars with high compression, like the S2000, IMO, are not good candidates for boost. I think cars are best suited for boost are cars that had that possiblity in mind when the car/engine was being designed. And "TRD" of Honda would be the place for such componentry.
[QUOTE]
F the warranty