Why is it that there are so many...
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Joined: Nov 2001
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From: :spam:u
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cthree
[B]My $0.02
99.9% of all of accidents involving the S2000 are driver error. Blaming the car for mistakes in judgement is a bit lame. There have been a couple of accidents which were mechanical but by in large it's about drivers pushing the car beyond the limit of control. Not knowing where that limit is is the driver's problem, not the car's.
At the track, you go out and your first lap is slow, you just want to get the tires warmed up. Each successive lap gets a bit faster until somewhere around the 5-6 mile mark the tires are hot and the car in the groove.
Did you read that?? 5-6 miles of track before the tires are at the correct temperature for performance driving. If you push to the limit before then you are in a zone where handling is unpredictable and twitchy.
[B]My $0.02
99.9% of all of accidents involving the S2000 are driver error. Blaming the car for mistakes in judgement is a bit lame. There have been a couple of accidents which were mechanical but by in large it's about drivers pushing the car beyond the limit of control. Not knowing where that limit is is the driver's problem, not the car's.
At the track, you go out and your first lap is slow, you just want to get the tires warmed up. Each successive lap gets a bit faster until somewhere around the 5-6 mile mark the tires are hot and the car in the groove.
Did you read that?? 5-6 miles of track before the tires are at the correct temperature for performance driving. If you push to the limit before then you are in a zone where handling is unpredictable and twitchy.
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 688
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From: Sellersburg
Ahh, here is the problem- from the S02 tire manual:
"These tires have built in pop-rocks which react with cold or wet situations to create a gliding surface for the best parking lot spins you will experience in your life time"
But seriously- I know better than to take those tires on Snow. I couldn't get out of my driveway last winter at 2MPH, much less go anywhere in the snow. And its not the car because I've seen several posts about people installing snow tires and doing just fine. Fortunately I have a couple other cars and can get by without snow tires.
I think CThree is right though- on dry roads you must let the tires warm up- and it takes a while when roads are wet or cold. Friends who drive high performance motorcycles will confirm this. Snow is another matter...I don't think warming up is possible in that situation.
What you can say for sure is that handling does vary with road conditions. It varies more with the S2000 than most.
-B
"These tires have built in pop-rocks which react with cold or wet situations to create a gliding surface for the best parking lot spins you will experience in your life time"
But seriously- I know better than to take those tires on Snow. I couldn't get out of my driveway last winter at 2MPH, much less go anywhere in the snow. And its not the car because I've seen several posts about people installing snow tires and doing just fine. Fortunately I have a couple other cars and can get by without snow tires.
I think CThree is right though- on dry roads you must let the tires warm up- and it takes a while when roads are wet or cold. Friends who drive high performance motorcycles will confirm this. Snow is another matter...I don't think warming up is possible in that situation.
What you can say for sure is that handling does vary with road conditions. It varies more with the S2000 than most.
-B
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,766
Likes: 8
From: Queens, NY
I've been driving RWD cars all my life. Its the only thing I will drive. Call me a traditionalist, old fashioned, whatever. (too bad the Prelude doesn't have RWD or I'd get that as well).
I remember the MGBs that I have had over the years (3 of them). In the cold or wet, or with a little too much throttle (yeah, I know, hard to imagine too much throttle in an MGB), the rear would kick out, sorta like the S2000. I could to the same in my 2WD Ford Ranger (elephant that it is). Usually by turning the steering wheel the way the car is spinning, you'll bet it under control
again, as long as you don't over correct your streering.
But I've been known to do a 180 in the MGs and Ranger when I put too much throttle into it on cold tires or wet roads or when I'm making a turn and all I really wanted to do was kick the rear
end out just enough to look cool (I'm more mature now...I think).
After almost 18k miles, my rear tires on the S2K are about gone and I need to get new tires real soon. I have noticed is that it's REAL EASY to spin the tires or kick the rear out with the worn
tires. I'm interested in getting wider tires for the rear, say 245/45/16 instead of the original 225, but Perry's comment. He says the 225 is narrower than the stock tire, actually the 225 is the stock size for the rear tire.
Perry, do you mean run with 245 in the rear and 205 or 225 up front or 225 all around, or some othercombo? And who makes the A032R?
Bottom line is, I think people who haven't had a rear drive car don't know its characteristics and that they can oversteer, as opposed to the front plow you get from a front drive car.
One trick on RWD cars is to set the rear tire pressures about 2-3 pounds lower than the front, that'll help (or adding 2-3 to the fronts while leaving the rears alone do the same thing), although the upgraded front sway bar is a better bet.
Just a thought from my twisted mind.
I remember the MGBs that I have had over the years (3 of them). In the cold or wet, or with a little too much throttle (yeah, I know, hard to imagine too much throttle in an MGB), the rear would kick out, sorta like the S2000. I could to the same in my 2WD Ford Ranger (elephant that it is). Usually by turning the steering wheel the way the car is spinning, you'll bet it under control
again, as long as you don't over correct your streering.
But I've been known to do a 180 in the MGs and Ranger when I put too much throttle into it on cold tires or wet roads or when I'm making a turn and all I really wanted to do was kick the rear
end out just enough to look cool (I'm more mature now...I think).
After almost 18k miles, my rear tires on the S2K are about gone and I need to get new tires real soon. I have noticed is that it's REAL EASY to spin the tires or kick the rear out with the worn
tires. I'm interested in getting wider tires for the rear, say 245/45/16 instead of the original 225, but Perry's comment. He says the 225 is narrower than the stock tire, actually the 225 is the stock size for the rear tire.
Perry, do you mean run with 245 in the rear and 205 or 225 up front or 225 all around, or some othercombo? And who makes the A032R?
Bottom line is, I think people who haven't had a rear drive car don't know its characteristics and that they can oversteer, as opposed to the front plow you get from a front drive car.
One trick on RWD cars is to set the rear tire pressures about 2-3 pounds lower than the front, that'll help (or adding 2-3 to the fronts while leaving the rears alone do the same thing), although the upgraded front sway bar is a better bet.
Just a thought from my twisted mind.
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Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Beaverton
Regarding the engine placement as a factor, there have been other cars with the engine mounted in front, but behind the front axles before without having twitchy handling. Keep in mind the many other variables that can make a car twitchy and prone to snap oversteer. Some that come to mind are: short wheelbase, stiff suspension/roll rates, lower roll center, bump steer in the front or back, wider tires, and low CG... pretty much any other chassis adjustment will have some kind of effect on how suddenly and quickly the back can come around. Also whether the s2000 is mid-engined is a matter of definition, but mid-engine or not, the weight still isn't anywhere near as close to the CG in the s2000 as it is in most traditional, behind the driver mid-engine layouts. So obviously the handling quirks aren't just because of the angular inertia, otherwise every mid engined car would be as bad or worse when it comes to controlling spins. I think everything that people have theorized in this thread and previous ones are all probably contributing factors, without any one thing being a dominant cause. The unique design of the car is what makes it fun and if Honda had 'fixed' the car from the factory it could have taken away from the very individual handling. I personally respect Honda for releasing a car that didn't sacrifice a potential safety hazard for the fun factor.