I just drove an AP1 this past weekend at length on some twisty country roads. Unfortunately, it didn't have the stock S-02s on it so the grip was lacking and the tires were allowing a lot more shifting around through transitions.

That said, the clutch felt better to me. The steering was more responsive as well. I liked the circular tweeter covers in the doors. I didn't like the gauge cluster - the rev bands were narrower and looked cheaper to me. I also prefer the tachometer as it sits in the AP2, where it only takes up about 3/5 of the top of the gauge cluster. I couldn't keep track of the revs as easily on the AP1. I didn't like how dancy the rear end was. Part of that was no doubt due to the tires but it definitely felt less stable. I was having to back off on corners where I'd sail through in my AP2.

To temper that, consider that I was driving a friend's car, I didn't want to crash, and I didn't want to do any non-intentional drifting, so I wasn't pushing as hard as I might in my own car.

I love the looks of the AP2. 100% better, in my mind, comparing stock vehicles. Not just the headlights but also the front nose and rear bumper with the bigger exhaust tips. The larger wheels and tires are just icing on the cake. I didn't notice a difference in the gearboxes until I got back into mine. It's definitely easier to shift. The clutch feels lighter but I do hate the CDV in the AP2. I need to get mine taken out.

What would I take if they were both brand new? AP2 all the way. I daily drive my car but I like to slide the back end and the AP2 does that more controllably, it seems. The car seems better damped, a little less twitchy, and generally more comfortable. I'm not so hardcore that I don't care about looks and, in general, the AP1 and AP2 are about as quick, so that's about all I have left to choose. Speed is more or less equal, so looks and refinement come next. The AP2 wins out every time there (in my book). I can modify it to be as "hardcore" as the AP1 if I want but honestly, I doubt 99% here can drive either car to its limits, so ultimate performance is secondary right now.

 

Hahaha. At the start of next years F1 season let's see if we can convince the Kimster or Loui that lowering their engines redline 10% won't matter.

Any of the people here who ride bikes care to have their bikes redline lowered to 8k? If 9k isn't cooler, then 8k redlines aren't any cooler than 6k redlines.

6k > 9k.

Yea, that must be right.

 

JonBoy, this is a great post.

[QUOTE=JonBoy,Nov 20 2007, 02:40 PM]I just drove an AP1 this past weekend at length on some twisty country roads.

 

I don't understand the argument, the cars are still VERY similar. It's not like an AP1 is an Elise and an AP2 is a G35 coupe. I prefer AP1 for autocross but I do like the AP2 on the street. My gf has an 00 AP1 and my dad has an 06 AP2, they're both great cars.

 

[QUOTE=RED MX5,Nov 20 2007, 02:22 PM]JonBoy, this is a great post.

 

Well then, it looks to me as if we're actually in total agreement.

BUT, now you've got me wondering ... Do you think "most people" can currently get the most out of ANY car? When we go to the Mazda Zoom Zoom Live events, most of the people there can't get anywhere close to the "target times." Year before last this was in very forgiving RX-8's with the traction control turned on, and last year it was in MS-6's with AWD and traction controll turned on. Half the people there couldn't get within 5 seconds of the target time, even though the cars were clearly capable of beating the target time by several seconds. I'm not that good, but the MS-6's were so forgiving that I was able to beat the target time by nearly a full second, on the run I took to see what the course looked like, and that was no where near what the car was capable of doing. I think "most people" don't care much about improving their driving sills, and of course such people will never learn to drive any car at the limt. Hence, it's not hard for them, becaue they don't care. So, left with those who WOULD learn to drive their S2000 well, do you think 99% can't handle it? LOL, sometimes all the crash threads we see here makes it seem that way, but do you really think that's the case?

In truth, the S2000 isn't any "harder" to drive at the limit than a Miata. It takes more finesse, and the handling is less forgiving of driver error, but the task itself is actually easier in the S2000, once you learn to finesse the car a little. It's easier, as long as you're getting it right, but less forgiving when you get it wrong. Doesn't that seem right?

What I found was that, where I can normally jump in a strange car and be running hot laps after a very brief practice period, the S2000 took quite a while to learn. It shows a driver his mistakes instantly, so it's harder to get right, but in the end the car has the capacity to make one a better driver. But of course that's only going to be true if one actually wants to become a better driver and is willing to work at it a little. With a little work and practice, the S2000 is actually a very easy car to take to the limit (easy, but still unforgiving).

LOL, I really don't think you and I are disagreeing at all; We're just clarifying the issue a little.

 

I think the fact that they're so similar makes it easier to contrast the differences - there's so much less distraction, so focusing on what you like or dislike is much easier.

Take my truck for example - completely different from the S2000. I don't even notice that it has a redline almost half of the S2000's. It simply is what it is, and I shift when needed.

For me, after spending a lot of time in the AP1 then jumping into the AP2 - the differences were glaringly obvious because everything else was the same, wheras when I get into David's Elise I just accept it as a completely new experience and I don't concentrate as much on a few details.

And those glaring details, for me, added up to a car that wasn't as fun to drive for various reasons.

 

I think that's got to be right.

The problem we have here is that if I mention something about the APx that I like, and then go on to explain why, there will almost always be somebody who gets offended, and there will always be somebody who will have to mock my preferences, and it really doesn't matter whether it's an AP1 preference or an AP2 preference. After being exposed to it for four years now I've long since become afraid to talk about the things I like so much about my AP1 if they're not common to the AP2, because that kind of thing so often leads to too much BS and too many misunderstandings.

Now that I think about it, it really sucks to feel uncomfortable talking about the things I love about my car, on a forum that is dedicated to the car. I still enjoy my time on S2kI, but I really do think all the penus envy has degraded the S2kI experience.

BUT, recent posts have me almost convinced that at long last this might actually be changing. I was actually at my wit's end, and starting to react badly at every comment that had the slightest smell of the AP1/AP2 BS, and to try to keep from turning into a complete AH, I was seriously considering finding something else to do with my S2kI time, but then suddenly the prevailing winds seem to have changed direction.

Have any of the rest of you noticed a change in the tone of this kind of thread recently? Doesn't it seem that, as a group, we are becoming more tolerant of each other's preferences?

 

No, not really. I think most people can drive it past its limits but rarely can they hold up just before the limit is reached. That's the key. Plenty of people are smart enough to make it go quickly, it's the turning and slowing/stopping that mess them up.

Plenty of people can figure out how to make a car drive quickly in a straight line (just practice launching and shifting) but when you add in corners and braking, that's a whole different idea. I don't think many people can do it properly in an automatic, much less a manual tranny.

I think, given enough time, anyone can be a pretty good driver IF THEY'LL LISTEN to what instructors tell them. Apparently that's what makes women so quick to pick up performance driving - they listen and have very few preconceived notions (or bad habits).

For me, the S2000 has taught me how to react more quickly to just about any situation but especially to oversteer. With temperatures dropping and the roads often cold (and slick), it's pretty challenging to drive quickly yet retain full control. I can throw the car into a drift or just slide the tail out on a corner, so that's nice to know, but I'm still working on diving into corners and such. You don't get much of that on a daily commute.

I'd still contend that the S2000 is not that easy to take to the limit (without crossing it), especially the AP1s. It bites quickly and at fairly high levels, so gathering it back in is even tougher (things happen more quickly at higher speeds). I could drive the wheels off my old VW Golf or Acura or even my Accord but the S2000 commands a lot more respect and bites far harder when I make a mistake.

 

This thread is pretty much lame at this point. Drive both, figure out which one you like better, and then buy it. End of story.