/thread.

 

Brunettes ARE hotter than blondes!

 

lol, my wife agrees.
For noobs, Honda made changes every two years to the S2000.
2000-2001 AP1v1
2002-2003 AP1v2
2004-2005 AP2v1
2006-2007 AP2v2
2008-2009 AP2v3

 

My S2000 is the best because its mine.

Seriously though, I don't understand how people think an AP1 is "twitchy" or hard to handle. I've had mine on the track several times, and all I can think to myself after each session is "damn, this car is forgiving!"

 

The AP1 does have kinda weird handling to me, I think purely due to the rear to shenanigans. I've driven a fair number of rwd cars over the years, primarily a 240Z, a few 240SXs RX-7s, RX-8, E36 M3, etc. etc. etc. The AP1 does act a little bit goofy, particularly stock (perversely enough), like mine is, where the suspension moves around a lot. When the back end gets out, it just seems to hang there a bit longer vs. the cars mentioned above.

The first time I tracked my AP1 was in 2007 at Watkins Glen right after I bought it, and my first lap around I lifted the *tiniest* bit at the top of the esses, and damn if it didn't step out. I rode it out fine, but if I didn't have a fair amount of track experience (including several trips to the Glen) it might have been a problem. I can *easily* see how someone with no track experience could find the car a big handful. I got used to it, but still, it's odd to me the way the car has this initial oversteery LURCH at turn-in before settling in as the car rolls over. The handling isn't as linear or consistent as other rwd cars. Particularly my 240Z, S13 240SX, and FD RX-7. In those cars I feel like when the back end comes out a bit they maintain more rear grip while sliding, and I don't lose as much time recovering. Even with the 240Z set up with a ridiculous amount of oversteer dialed in, it still felt a lot more linear, and would more smoothly go into and out of a slide, as opposed to the AP1 which seems to want to rotate more as it begins to slide.

FWIW, I've found that it isn't as bad with minimal static rear toe-in (0.15-0.2 degrees total), and MUCH worse with a lot of rear toe (0.6+ degrees total)

I recently drove a fully track-prepped AP1 that had an AP2 rear subframe swapped into it at the track, and it seemed to handle a LOT more linearly and was HUGELY fun to drive (thanks Pete!).

Rear toe change with bump: It sucks! That's my only big complaint about the AP1.

 

All series of change years and pros and cons, and some are just personal preference. No point in getting hung up or butt hurt about any of it. My car is an 01, but the only thing that remains 01 is the interior, chassis and sway bars. Everything else has either been dumped for high performance after market parts, customization or some ap2 components.

In a nut shell/
00-01- Ap1 is the most raw and exiting feeling, with handing bias to over steer at the limit, the 02-03 balanced the sway bars differently to be a bit more equalized, also had a few other improvements too long to list here, 03 is probably the most popular year for an ap1 if you like the original feel of the car and F20, but like the change list.

04-05 -you get an F22 which puts out a little more trq and hp per rpm but the rpm is 1000 shorter, typically still yields more at peak as well as area under curve, has stronger equipped valve train and less oil usage due to improved block/cylinder machining. Handling bias to push the front end at the limit. Weighs 100lb more and is softer sprung, feels more refined for the average joe.

06+ -Ap2/DBW traction control, more bells and whistles.

CR - a cosmetically redesigned Ap2/DBW car that barrows some of what made the early 00-01 a fun/lively/capable performer, along with a few other chassis improvements.

 

ZDave, I haven't pried into this aspect much, I assumed its all toe influence related by where the connecting points are of the toe arm in relation to the lower A arm travel, so they have a "conflicting" path from one another, but I don't know, I'm just assuming based on what little tid bits Ive come across on the subject. Do you know what the exact differences are between the sub frame/suspension components that are influencing the differences between the two designs? We all know ride height plays a role no matter what, but given the same set up, just purely the design differences.

I'd like to determine if there are any further improvement possibilities beyond my re calibration of toe movement through my ride height/alignment and after market adjustable toe arms. I have eliminated actual positive toe under droop to date because droop is shorter then stock and re aligned to a new center toe setting. The toe arm no longer has a +/- radius through its range because its not past parallel at droop anymore like it is when stock. Toe till goes negative under compression now but its very minimal due to lowering the toe arm connecting point at wheel side, and less then stock suspension upstroke travel. Is there anything else I'm missing that the stock ap2 design achieves for that better rearend linear handling?

 

The difference must be the height of the inner toe pivot on the subframe, because I'm pretty sure the control arms adn toe links are the same parts. Bump steer kits fix this by moving the toe link outboard pivot point downward, presumably the AP2 subframe positions the inner toe link pivot higher to make it more parallel to the control arm.

Sounds like you addressed the toe change issue at least to some extent by moving the outboard toe link pivot downward. Would be interesting to see exactly what that did to the toe curve. Anyway, reducing or eliminating the toe change is the main (only?) difference in rear geometry.

Who's "ZDave"?

 

Thanks for the confirmation on the toe issue I dressed. Damn! I was hoping there was something else different so I can find one more thing to do to this car

... and sorry ZDan, ZDave is a different guy on this website. I brain farted. Too damn similar

 

03, 06, and 08. Refinements, updates, and new model offerings in these model years. But honestly, any year model behind the wheel of this car is an amazing driving experience.

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