Amuse vs Toda Header.
Registered User
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 505
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From: Connecticut via Abu Dhabi
I don't think the Spoon N1 is loud anymore. It seemed loud and resonated between4k-5k rpm, but with a few miles on it, that's all gone. Asura, your Spoon N1 resonates or not?
The resonance also varies depending on header. My brothers car with Spoon header and Spoon N1, resonates between 3.5k-5k rpm. I am running the Mugen header with the Spoon N1. Driving both cars back to back there was a difference in sound level.
We're probably way off topic now. I appologise. So my opinion is if you already have the Mugen or Spoon, getting another header is silly. You will not get the gains that warrant the money spent on the swap. However if you are just starting, then obviously the selection has increased. Its odd, but for all those in California, I have not heard any mention of CARB exemption being something of a consideration.
cheers
W
The resonance also varies depending on header. My brothers car with Spoon header and Spoon N1, resonates between 3.5k-5k rpm. I am running the Mugen header with the Spoon N1. Driving both cars back to back there was a difference in sound level.
We're probably way off topic now. I appologise. So my opinion is if you already have the Mugen or Spoon, getting another header is silly. You will not get the gains that warrant the money spent on the swap. However if you are just starting, then obviously the selection has increased. Its odd, but for all those in California, I have not heard any mention of CARB exemption being something of a consideration.
cheers
W
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 42,828
Likes: 74
From: stuffed in a box
Originally posted by JL9000
Actually the Mugen header doesn't sell very well now considering it's all a trend. Someone report a huge gain with certain products, people just get them and believe they gained the same. Everyonewants a Toda now, and when someone reports any bad things about it and good things about others, people shift to the new one and the Toda will be worthless. Sad but true.
Actually the Mugen header doesn't sell very well now considering it's all a trend. Someone report a huge gain with certain products, people just get them and believe they gained the same. Everyonewants a Toda now, and when someone reports any bad things about it and good things about others, people shift to the new one and the Toda will be worthless. Sad but true.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 42,828
Likes: 74
From: stuffed in a box
fair enough. I guess it was the "when someone reports any bad things about it and good things about others" part that threw me, I guess it's inevitable. Sounded as if you were skeptical.....
Although I doubt a header will post "less than decent" results. The result are out there already - 10hp. I don't think it's suddenly going to make less power one day.......
Although I doubt a header will post "less than decent" results. The result are out there already - 10hp. I don't think it's suddenly going to make less power one day.......
Registered User
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 505
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From: Connecticut via Abu Dhabi
Well Mugen state their header/catback/intake combo will yield 16 bhp. Truth is, intake temp. makes a huge difference in dyno results with this car.
I am inclined to believe that 16bhp would translate to 10rwhp (assuming 30% drivetrain loss). I think its pretty fair and honestly believe the heat shielding integrated in the Mugen header is worth considering as a benefit.
So perhaps the Toda give you 12 rwhp, and the Mugen gives you 10rwhp (assuming both are running with single N1 style catback), but I think because of the heat shielding, the Mugen will offer its 10rwhp more of the time than the Toda will offer its 12rwhp.
In the end, most good equal length header will perform close to one another. We're almost nit-picking now, 1 to 2 hp means nothing really. The way you line up your car on the dyno will make a larger difference than that. The size of your rear tires will make a difference, the tire compound will make a bigger difference than that between the Mugen header and Toda.
The narrower your rear wheels and the harder the compound, the more power your dyno will show.
Now, this is all in relation to peak hp...this has nothing to do with "where" the power increase is or the shape of the dyno plot. That has much to do with when the header tubing fork and that's where a lot of the engineering goes.
cheers
W
I am inclined to believe that 16bhp would translate to 10rwhp (assuming 30% drivetrain loss). I think its pretty fair and honestly believe the heat shielding integrated in the Mugen header is worth considering as a benefit.
So perhaps the Toda give you 12 rwhp, and the Mugen gives you 10rwhp (assuming both are running with single N1 style catback), but I think because of the heat shielding, the Mugen will offer its 10rwhp more of the time than the Toda will offer its 12rwhp.
In the end, most good equal length header will perform close to one another. We're almost nit-picking now, 1 to 2 hp means nothing really. The way you line up your car on the dyno will make a larger difference than that. The size of your rear tires will make a difference, the tire compound will make a bigger difference than that between the Mugen header and Toda.
The narrower your rear wheels and the harder the compound, the more power your dyno will show.
Now, this is all in relation to peak hp...this has nothing to do with "where" the power increase is or the shape of the dyno plot. That has much to do with when the header tubing fork and that's where a lot of the engineering goes.
cheers
W
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,895
Likes: 1
From: You wish
Here's the deal folks. I own a Mugen header, dyno'd plenty of them as the only change made on a before and after dyno. The results are pretty consistent. Peak hp shows no gains, or even a slight loss in some cases (1-2 hp maximum). Power after the peak (8300 rpm) drops off faster as well. In return, you pick up a nice fat midrange gain, averaging about 5 hp and 5 lbs-ft of torque. Its a very useful modification, especially for daily driving, and it helps coming out of slow corners.
By comparison, I have only dyno'd one Toda header (Prolene's car). His car is a bit special, with a very free flowing exhaust already and pretty much all the other bolt ons. He removed the Mugen and installed the Toda. Several things happened. First, the car made more power. Everywhere, but the gains were significant above about 5000-6000 rpm. It didn't lose anywhere vs. the Mugen, but one could call the curve below 4500 rpm a wash between the two. The second thing that happened was that the car was noticeably leaner than it was before. So much so that I suggested we add some more fuel with his adjustable fuel pressure regulator. This provided even larger power gains. All told, above 6000-7000 rpm the Toda header simply ate the Mugen for lunch.
All hp numbers are corrected (the torque numbers are not so ignore them) and temperatures were consistent between tests. I was surprised to see a header work that well, but it did. I look forward to seeing more. And for those considering the Spoon header, I've never seen results on one that I considered worth the price or tradeoffs. There is a _huge_ dip around 7000 rpm that would just kill you on the track. And any top end gains are relatively small.
UL
By comparison, I have only dyno'd one Toda header (Prolene's car). His car is a bit special, with a very free flowing exhaust already and pretty much all the other bolt ons. He removed the Mugen and installed the Toda. Several things happened. First, the car made more power. Everywhere, but the gains were significant above about 5000-6000 rpm. It didn't lose anywhere vs. the Mugen, but one could call the curve below 4500 rpm a wash between the two. The second thing that happened was that the car was noticeably leaner than it was before. So much so that I suggested we add some more fuel with his adjustable fuel pressure regulator. This provided even larger power gains. All told, above 6000-7000 rpm the Toda header simply ate the Mugen for lunch.
All hp numbers are corrected (the torque numbers are not so ignore them) and temperatures were consistent between tests. I was surprised to see a header work that well, but it did. I look forward to seeing more. And for those considering the Spoon header, I've never seen results on one that I considered worth the price or tradeoffs. There is a _huge_ dip around 7000 rpm that would just kill you on the track. And any top end gains are relatively small.
UL