Mugen ECU dyno plot
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Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Hollywood
Hey Jason S.
as a minimum, swap back the stock heavy wheels and tires, lose the aero hardtop, add ballast to equal the weight reduction from convertible mechanism, hood and seats, etc.; THEN do some "real-world" acceleration tests vs. stock S2K's.
You can report how many doors you "completely blew off"
in your next pontific.....oops, i meant pretentiously dogmatic opinion.
as a minimum, swap back the stock heavy wheels and tires, lose the aero hardtop, add ballast to equal the weight reduction from convertible mechanism, hood and seats, etc.; THEN do some "real-world" acceleration tests vs. stock S2K's.
You can report how many doors you "completely blew off"
in your next pontific.....oops, i meant pretentiously dogmatic opinion.
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Joined: Feb 2001
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From: You wish
Pot, kettle, black?
Higher octane gas automatically having lower energy content is an old wives tale. Go measure the energy content of Unocal Racing 100 vs. their standard 91 octane. Then look at the composition of the gasolines. What percentage of light and heavy ends in each blend?
Gasoline is a blend of many different components. A good race gas will not only have higher octane, but a quicker, more consistent burn (if that is desired), less contaminants/deposit causing components, etc.
Hell, why does one race gasoline produce more power than another on the same car despite the same octane? Its all about the blend.
UL
Higher octane gas automatically having lower energy content is an old wives tale. Go measure the energy content of Unocal Racing 100 vs. their standard 91 octane. Then look at the composition of the gasolines. What percentage of light and heavy ends in each blend?
Gasoline is a blend of many different components. A good race gas will not only have higher octane, but a quicker, more consistent burn (if that is desired), less contaminants/deposit causing components, etc.
Hell, why does one race gasoline produce more power than another on the same car despite the same octane? Its all about the blend.
UL
Originally posted by Chris S
It's amazing how much mis-information is out there regarding race gas - Gasoline's energy content is inversely correlated w/ octane
It's amazing how much mis-information is out there regarding race gas - Gasoline's energy content is inversely correlated w/ octane
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Joined: Dec 2000
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From: San Diego
Please forgive this intrusion into this wonderful thread, but perhaps I may attempt to bring to the surface a certain underlying issue that has long existed on this board.
There's a few things that happen here so often and with such regularity, I could set my watch to them. One is cdelena's retort to the statement "dual exhausts don't make power on the S2000", usually replied to with "show me some proof of this". (Sorry to use you as an example Chris
) His motive is easy enough to understand, he has a dual exhaust and it made power on his car. He's simply trying to help those that have been misinformed.
Another instance is that whenever the quality or efficacy of a Mugen product is brought into question, that someone (usually from Chicago) will arrive on the scene like a blindfolded firefighter, spraying words of remedy in every direction to try to put out the perceived flames. I've seen it time and time again, most recently here, but it goes back past the old Spoon vs. Mugen thread, featuring the modesty and tact of the not-so-dearly departed GTRPower. I don't know what sort of glue Mugen uses in their packaging, but I think a few of you have spent too much time inhaling it.
In a way I feel sorry for Scott @ King, for he is the only one to have spoken on behalf of Mugen and his shop in a manner that sits at all well with me. If it were just he speaking on behalf of Mugen, I'd probably own some of their stuff. The rest of you repeatedly rush in blindly with defense, as if your livelihoods rested on the reputation of Mugen. Your bias makes you transparent, and like an expert witness paid off by counsel, any facts you may later bring to light in your cause (true though they may be) fall on the deaf ears of this juror.
Perhaps if the exact relationship between Mugen/King and their staunchest supporters were better illustrated in their posts, the poor folks trying to make up their minds based on the piles of facts/opinions/hogwash they receive could weigh such information with the appropriate number of grains of salt. The statement "I do not work for/am not sponsored by/do not receive special help, favors, or discounts from/ company XYZ" is assumed any time an individual states facts/opinions on company XYZ's products and services. If such statement is not unequivocally true, it needs to be mentioned at the time the facts/opinions are presented, for the sake of all parties.
Now, on to other things...first:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by meat
[B]...
Please look to the lap-times that the King prepared S2000 was turning at Laguna back in December. This car was besting cars that no stock S2000 could compete with. Very impressive stuff.
There's a few things that happen here so often and with such regularity, I could set my watch to them. One is cdelena's retort to the statement "dual exhausts don't make power on the S2000", usually replied to with "show me some proof of this". (Sorry to use you as an example Chris
) His motive is easy enough to understand, he has a dual exhaust and it made power on his car. He's simply trying to help those that have been misinformed.Another instance is that whenever the quality or efficacy of a Mugen product is brought into question, that someone (usually from Chicago) will arrive on the scene like a blindfolded firefighter, spraying words of remedy in every direction to try to put out the perceived flames. I've seen it time and time again, most recently here, but it goes back past the old Spoon vs. Mugen thread, featuring the modesty and tact of the not-so-dearly departed GTRPower. I don't know what sort of glue Mugen uses in their packaging, but I think a few of you have spent too much time inhaling it.
In a way I feel sorry for Scott @ King, for he is the only one to have spoken on behalf of Mugen and his shop in a manner that sits at all well with me. If it were just he speaking on behalf of Mugen, I'd probably own some of their stuff. The rest of you repeatedly rush in blindly with defense, as if your livelihoods rested on the reputation of Mugen. Your bias makes you transparent, and like an expert witness paid off by counsel, any facts you may later bring to light in your cause (true though they may be) fall on the deaf ears of this juror.
Perhaps if the exact relationship between Mugen/King and their staunchest supporters were better illustrated in their posts, the poor folks trying to make up their minds based on the piles of facts/opinions/hogwash they receive could weigh such information with the appropriate number of grains of salt. The statement "I do not work for/am not sponsored by/do not receive special help, favors, or discounts from/ company XYZ" is assumed any time an individual states facts/opinions on company XYZ's products and services. If such statement is not unequivocally true, it needs to be mentioned at the time the facts/opinions are presented, for the sake of all parties.
Now, on to other things...first:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by meat
[B]...
Please look to the lap-times that the King prepared S2000 was turning at Laguna back in December. This car was besting cars that no stock S2000 could compete with. Very impressive stuff.
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From: Chicago
Quite frankly, Schpinkter's posts are inflammatory towards me, and I'm defending my opinions before defending King. He could very easily refute my opinions without the little personal dig at the end of each post. He may think he's being cute, but there's no need for such crap. And JZR, I apologize for how I may come across, but these are my experiences. I got defensive when Schpinkter basically called my experiences into question rudely, and began to throw out factors that I was already considering.
Also, quite frankly, those 2-3 seconds faster at Laguna are mighty hard to come by - not to mention the fact that I'm sure the car would be considerably quicker in more skilled hands. I'm confident that car would run 1:42-3 with someone like Bob Endicott at the wheel, making the gap more like 4-6 seconds faster - but that's merely a 'what-if' situation. I know I'm not as fast as Bob Endicott, however.
It's true I am closely associated with King, but I'm not the blind follower like some of you see me as - I've just seen REPEATED benefits from their product. I've never claimed that they are worth the price, because that is a personal choice each of us have to make. I take exception to claims that they don't work as advertised, however.
And since our higway tests 'aren't good enough for you,' I'd like to get a valid technical explanation as to why not. These were (2) Mugen cars against (3) Stock or near-stock cars. A fairly large sample group IMO. There were repeatable gains - that's the fact. It may not be as scientific as the dyno, but it was on the same day, same stretch of road. The fuel mileage results are particularly interesting.
If Schpinkter has these Mugen parts that you mention, JZR, wouldn't it be much more constructive for him to share his own experiences rather than attack me personally?
Go back an re-read my posts to this thread - I don't think I'm pontificating, and I'm sorry that any of you feel that way. I do the best that I can to be fair and objective - AND CONSTRUCTIVE. I don't EVER go out of my way to flame someone, nor call them a liar. I don't understand how I keep elliciting such negativity out of my fellow board members.
I knew I stayed in the racing forum for a reason.
Also, quite frankly, those 2-3 seconds faster at Laguna are mighty hard to come by - not to mention the fact that I'm sure the car would be considerably quicker in more skilled hands. I'm confident that car would run 1:42-3 with someone like Bob Endicott at the wheel, making the gap more like 4-6 seconds faster - but that's merely a 'what-if' situation. I know I'm not as fast as Bob Endicott, however.
It's true I am closely associated with King, but I'm not the blind follower like some of you see me as - I've just seen REPEATED benefits from their product. I've never claimed that they are worth the price, because that is a personal choice each of us have to make. I take exception to claims that they don't work as advertised, however.
And since our higway tests 'aren't good enough for you,' I'd like to get a valid technical explanation as to why not. These were (2) Mugen cars against (3) Stock or near-stock cars. A fairly large sample group IMO. There were repeatable gains - that's the fact. It may not be as scientific as the dyno, but it was on the same day, same stretch of road. The fuel mileage results are particularly interesting.
If Schpinkter has these Mugen parts that you mention, JZR, wouldn't it be much more constructive for him to share his own experiences rather than attack me personally?
Go back an re-read my posts to this thread - I don't think I'm pontificating, and I'm sorry that any of you feel that way. I do the best that I can to be fair and objective - AND CONSTRUCTIVE. I don't EVER go out of my way to flame someone, nor call them a liar. I don't understand how I keep elliciting such negativity out of my fellow board members.
I knew I stayed in the racing forum for a reason.
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From: Ranson, WV
no one can ever agree....
we are now seeing dynopack, dynojet and mustang dyno runs that all show different stats based on the way they work, and people argue that any dyno is not accurate since the car is sitting still with no airflow.
now we have people putting cars on the road for comparisons and others complain that street peformance tests prove nothing.
there is another thread about someone wanting to see a stock, sc and turbo s2k run against each other, no one is asking to stop by the truck weigh station and put in ballast to make the cars the same weight before the run.
end result is it is my cash, i spend it and am either happy or pissed depending on what the mod does for me and the way i drive.
like the guy says, if i can see you in my mirror, you are losing. unless you're a cop, then i am getting out my checkbook.
keith
maybe those F1 guys have it all wrong spending millions on dyno testing, having other drivers who do nothing but test the cars so the "real" drivers can concentrate on race weekends on sponsor meet and greets.
those guys point out time difference in tenths of seconds based on the tire brand used, angle of the wing, 1 lap less of gas in the tank.
keith
we are now seeing dynopack, dynojet and mustang dyno runs that all show different stats based on the way they work, and people argue that any dyno is not accurate since the car is sitting still with no airflow.
now we have people putting cars on the road for comparisons and others complain that street peformance tests prove nothing.
there is another thread about someone wanting to see a stock, sc and turbo s2k run against each other, no one is asking to stop by the truck weigh station and put in ballast to make the cars the same weight before the run.
end result is it is my cash, i spend it and am either happy or pissed depending on what the mod does for me and the way i drive.
like the guy says, if i can see you in my mirror, you are losing. unless you're a cop, then i am getting out my checkbook.
keith
maybe those F1 guys have it all wrong spending millions on dyno testing, having other drivers who do nothing but test the cars so the "real" drivers can concentrate on race weekends on sponsor meet and greets.
those guys point out time difference in tenths of seconds based on the tire brand used, angle of the wing, 1 lap less of gas in the tank.
keith
