Mugen ECU dyno plot
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From: You wish
Pinky,
You're generally correct in saying that its the real world that counts. If a part makes you (as an individual driver) and your car (as a machine) and the combination of the two faster, then its a good thing. Sometimes that may even mean that the part causes you to lose a little power in a certain place. As an obscure reference, look to the Honda MotoGP history of the "screamer" and "big bang" two stroke 500cc engines.
Before I go on, let me say that I am quite biased towards using dynos. I just bought one. :-)
That said, the reason why we use dynos, and why race teams especially use dynos, is that its the best way to control conditions as closely as possible to ensure that the results measured are accurate. Frankly, a side by side roll on with another car is one of the worst ways. As I think jzr put it, a small difference in reaction time is virtually insurmountable with small hp differences (for example, if I hit the throttle 0.3 seconds sooner in a stock S2000, the Mugen S2000 tested in Car and Driver would take a full 1/4 mile to catch me, assuming my car was exactly like the car C&D tested, and I think we knwo that some cars are stronger than others). If you truly want to test, you need to drag race at a proper track. But that won't tell you how the car will behave out of a corner at your road course. So you need to look at segment times then on the track, which requires a little more work, especailly trying to test out multiple parts on the same day, while taking into account track temps, weather conditions etc. That's why dynos are so useful. They require careful attention to detail as well, but its a lot easier to control in the dyno room than on the track. Should you automatically assume that the gains you saw on the dyno will translate to beter lap times? No, you should test them in both locations, and establish correlation.
Personally, the reason I bought a dyno is because I think that historically chassis dynos have been misused in a variety of ways. Inconsistent test procedures, improper (or nonexistent) monitoring of the right variables, changing too many things, etc. I hope to change that and set an example of how things should be done. I also thought it would be fun to have a business related to the hobby I love. I also purchased a system that is mobile as I hope to take it to the track to allow racers to check parts in several ways in the same venue. The next year will tell whether or not my premise is correct.
And with that, I respectfully defer to the colonel's wishes. 9906, keep us posted on how your retesting goes. If you'd like some ideas on establishing consistent and repeatable test procedures, drop me a PM.
UL
and p.s., in case I didn't mention it, I own a Mugen header too. And despite a loss of 2 hp up top at the peak, I kept it for the midrange gains.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pinky
[B]
As for dyno's and other stuff.
You're generally correct in saying that its the real world that counts. If a part makes you (as an individual driver) and your car (as a machine) and the combination of the two faster, then its a good thing. Sometimes that may even mean that the part causes you to lose a little power in a certain place. As an obscure reference, look to the Honda MotoGP history of the "screamer" and "big bang" two stroke 500cc engines.
Before I go on, let me say that I am quite biased towards using dynos. I just bought one. :-)
That said, the reason why we use dynos, and why race teams especially use dynos, is that its the best way to control conditions as closely as possible to ensure that the results measured are accurate. Frankly, a side by side roll on with another car is one of the worst ways. As I think jzr put it, a small difference in reaction time is virtually insurmountable with small hp differences (for example, if I hit the throttle 0.3 seconds sooner in a stock S2000, the Mugen S2000 tested in Car and Driver would take a full 1/4 mile to catch me, assuming my car was exactly like the car C&D tested, and I think we knwo that some cars are stronger than others). If you truly want to test, you need to drag race at a proper track. But that won't tell you how the car will behave out of a corner at your road course. So you need to look at segment times then on the track, which requires a little more work, especailly trying to test out multiple parts on the same day, while taking into account track temps, weather conditions etc. That's why dynos are so useful. They require careful attention to detail as well, but its a lot easier to control in the dyno room than on the track. Should you automatically assume that the gains you saw on the dyno will translate to beter lap times? No, you should test them in both locations, and establish correlation.
Personally, the reason I bought a dyno is because I think that historically chassis dynos have been misused in a variety of ways. Inconsistent test procedures, improper (or nonexistent) monitoring of the right variables, changing too many things, etc. I hope to change that and set an example of how things should be done. I also thought it would be fun to have a business related to the hobby I love. I also purchased a system that is mobile as I hope to take it to the track to allow racers to check parts in several ways in the same venue. The next year will tell whether or not my premise is correct.
And with that, I respectfully defer to the colonel's wishes. 9906, keep us posted on how your retesting goes. If you'd like some ideas on establishing consistent and repeatable test procedures, drop me a PM.
UL
and p.s., in case I didn't mention it, I own a Mugen header too. And despite a loss of 2 hp up top at the peak, I kept it for the midrange gains.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pinky
[B]
As for dyno's and other stuff.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Chicago
A couple things... 9906, why did you choose my post to illustrate your discussion about how the thread had gone south? I'm not going to get into a 'who started it' debate, but I was trying to keep things from getting out of hand with that post, and believe me it was a reserved response compared to what I could have posted.
Second, to UL and those who have questioned our 'side-by-side' testing on the street because 'someone may have hit the gas .3 seconds sooner,' that's exactly why I used the word repeatable. Not only was it several cars and drivers, but we did it many times, and even when we got an ititial jump with the stock cars, it was quickly overcome by the Mugen car. And again, it's not like we did this once and then went 'huh - that's conclusive,' we tried different speeds, and several different attempts. All with repeatable results.
I know results with no numbers means nothing to most people, but if you had been riding in one of those cars that day, our impromptu tests would have meant something to you. I was simply trying to share that. I'm just trying to understand why I got 'jumped' for doing that.
Second, to UL and those who have questioned our 'side-by-side' testing on the street because 'someone may have hit the gas .3 seconds sooner,' that's exactly why I used the word repeatable. Not only was it several cars and drivers, but we did it many times, and even when we got an ititial jump with the stock cars, it was quickly overcome by the Mugen car. And again, it's not like we did this once and then went 'huh - that's conclusive,' we tried different speeds, and several different attempts. All with repeatable results.
I know results with no numbers means nothing to most people, but if you had been riding in one of those cars that day, our impromptu tests would have meant something to you. I was simply trying to share that. I'm just trying to understand why I got 'jumped' for doing that.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,645
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From: Chapel Hill, NC
UL:
I think your definitly right in that people do either to many correctoins or none at all on the dyno. Maybe this is why I have my reservations about comparing numbers from different dyno's or even different DAYS(on the same dyno of course)!!!
Thing of it is that dyno's have their place and that is in my mind(which is questionable) for continuous testing to tune a car or getting final peak numbers and an idea of the difference in where mods make power.(if they even register since some mods make so little power)
As Jason says repeatable runs is where its at! Slight jumps will be factored out in the long run of say 10 runs.
Though back to the topic. The ECU has a new fuel map so it has leaned out the mix and even if it dosen't show a gain on the dyno. If you put it in your car and pull harder/faster and get better gas milage than other cars........
Mucho good luck there UL with your venture. If anybody can make it work YOU CAN. I have grown to highly respect you and what you say.
I think your definitly right in that people do either to many correctoins or none at all on the dyno. Maybe this is why I have my reservations about comparing numbers from different dyno's or even different DAYS(on the same dyno of course)!!!
Thing of it is that dyno's have their place and that is in my mind(which is questionable) for continuous testing to tune a car or getting final peak numbers and an idea of the difference in where mods make power.(if they even register since some mods make so little power)
As Jason says repeatable runs is where its at! Slight jumps will be factored out in the long run of say 10 runs.
Though back to the topic. The ECU has a new fuel map so it has leaned out the mix and even if it dosen't show a gain on the dyno. If you put it in your car and pull harder/faster and get better gas milage than other cars........
Mucho good luck there UL with your venture. If anybody can make it work YOU CAN. I have grown to highly respect you and what you say.
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