S2000 Turbo
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From: Austin
From what I can tell, the S2000 engine would be a great turbo engine. The bottom end is already built with forged pistons and rods. Lower compression a bit, change the cams to something mild, or just disable vtec. Change out the valve springs and retainers, then boost up. I sure hope someone comes out with a turbo kit. Superchargers are nice, but turbos are better.
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Joined: Feb 2001
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From: You wish
If you really want to do a turbo right, buy an aftermarket engine control system first. To do anything else is compromising performance, reliability, etc. For the manifold, I'd suggest contacting a company like Hi-Tech exhaust in Orange County, CA. For power, 10 psi at 9:1 compression should be good for about 375-390 crank hp. 18 psi (which would probably require race gas) would be good for around 450-500 hp. There are a _lot_ of assumptions in those numbers though.
The nice thing about an aftermarket engine control system is that it will save you money in other areas. For example, it will allow you to run much bigger injectors than stock. This will prevent you from having to upgrade the fuel pump for applications below 350-400 hp (most fuel pump upgrades are needed because pump volume decreases as required pressure increases, so you have to get an oversized pump to deal with the 100 psi operating pressures required with a boost dependent fuel pressure regulator). You can also leave the regulator stock. No check valves or bypasses are needed, because the stock MAP sensor will read accurately to 11-12 psi, you just have to have a system that won't freak when it sees those manifold pressures.
Spend $2000 on an engine control system and bigger injectors (I'd say 550cc/min should do it) and then the rest of the parts are simple. Figure $1000 for a good tubular manifold. $600-900 for a good turbo. $500-600 for wastegates and BOV. And then $1000 for a good intercooler and your charge piping. You'd spend a little more than you would for the Comptech system, and you'd have to install the engine management system, which isn't always easy. But in retrun you'd have great drivability, the ability to run at least 7-8 psi on the stock bottom end (on pump gas, the forged pieces and the Honda sleeves should be good to at least 10-12 psi) and vastly improved midrange. Conversely, you could just add the engine management to the Comptech system (along with maybe an intercooler), but a centrifugal blower will never match the midrange on a good turbo.
UL
The nice thing about an aftermarket engine control system is that it will save you money in other areas. For example, it will allow you to run much bigger injectors than stock. This will prevent you from having to upgrade the fuel pump for applications below 350-400 hp (most fuel pump upgrades are needed because pump volume decreases as required pressure increases, so you have to get an oversized pump to deal with the 100 psi operating pressures required with a boost dependent fuel pressure regulator). You can also leave the regulator stock. No check valves or bypasses are needed, because the stock MAP sensor will read accurately to 11-12 psi, you just have to have a system that won't freak when it sees those manifold pressures.
Spend $2000 on an engine control system and bigger injectors (I'd say 550cc/min should do it) and then the rest of the parts are simple. Figure $1000 for a good tubular manifold. $600-900 for a good turbo. $500-600 for wastegates and BOV. And then $1000 for a good intercooler and your charge piping. You'd spend a little more than you would for the Comptech system, and you'd have to install the engine management system, which isn't always easy. But in retrun you'd have great drivability, the ability to run at least 7-8 psi on the stock bottom end (on pump gas, the forged pieces and the Honda sleeves should be good to at least 10-12 psi) and vastly improved midrange. Conversely, you could just add the engine management to the Comptech system (along with maybe an intercooler), but a centrifugal blower will never match the midrange on a good turbo.
UL
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From: Florida
Originally posted by ultimate lurker
This will prevent you from having to upgrade the fuel pump for applications below 350-400 hp
This will prevent you from having to upgrade the fuel pump for applications below 350-400 hp
Most rails accept the OEM FPR. If you run 10lb of boost your FP will increase the same - see below. At 53.3 lbs of FP and 50lb MSDs, you will need a larger FP - Walboro 190LPH is a great match - its only $90.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ultimate lurker
[B]required with a boost dependent fuel pressure regulator).
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From: You wish
Joe, I'm not sure why you say you will need a fuel rail. I run 450 cc Mitsu injectors on my stock CRX fuel rail with no flow problems.
I'm familiar with the equations for injector delivery vs. pressure. The key being that a boost dependent FPR raises pressure as a multiple of boost pressure which is hard on fuel pumps. Any factory regulator must reference to manifold pressure to keep the pressure _differential_ the same (otherwise fuel delivery would decrease as load increased!). As such, I think it might be dangerous to assume that your fuel delivery will increase as you've calculated (since differential pressure between rail and manifold will ostensibly remain the same).
In terms of the fuel pump, my S2k FSM doesn't list capacity, but I have to assume it is well in excess of the 28 gph units in the Integras (or the 19 gph in my CRX). Let's call it 40 gph (40% more power, 40% more capacity). With a BSFC of 0.5, this would be sufficient to support at least 400 hp (the calc actually comes out to 520 hp at 100% utilization, but we have to leave capacity to generate pressure in the rail - provided that you don't jack fuel pressure up much beyond stock (10 psi would be tolerable).
Interestingly, we're able to support about 200 crank hp (175 wheel) at 8 psi on my CRX using the factory pump and regulator. Hence my comments. Mixture on the wideband remains at 12.6-12.9 all the way to redline. I've added a KB boost-a-pump as a precaution when we go to 10 psi and a more efficent blower, but I suspect we won't need it. I also use the factory MAP which has been a piece of cake to tune (using the Zdyne ECU). I've also tried the Aquamist system (still in my car, just disconnected), but haven't been happy with it. Mike Kojima swears by it (convinced me to get it), but I think there are issues with the vapor distribution in my supercharger manifold. I may need to add a second nozzle. As it stands, there are no power gains and it hurts throttle response (tried nozzles from 0.4mm to 1.0mm).
The GT30 sounds like a spectacular unit. Is it a cousin of the GT25's that the SupraTT guys use in the repalcement twin setup?
UL
I'm familiar with the equations for injector delivery vs. pressure. The key being that a boost dependent FPR raises pressure as a multiple of boost pressure which is hard on fuel pumps. Any factory regulator must reference to manifold pressure to keep the pressure _differential_ the same (otherwise fuel delivery would decrease as load increased!). As such, I think it might be dangerous to assume that your fuel delivery will increase as you've calculated (since differential pressure between rail and manifold will ostensibly remain the same).
In terms of the fuel pump, my S2k FSM doesn't list capacity, but I have to assume it is well in excess of the 28 gph units in the Integras (or the 19 gph in my CRX). Let's call it 40 gph (40% more power, 40% more capacity). With a BSFC of 0.5, this would be sufficient to support at least 400 hp (the calc actually comes out to 520 hp at 100% utilization, but we have to leave capacity to generate pressure in the rail - provided that you don't jack fuel pressure up much beyond stock (10 psi would be tolerable).
Interestingly, we're able to support about 200 crank hp (175 wheel) at 8 psi on my CRX using the factory pump and regulator. Hence my comments. Mixture on the wideband remains at 12.6-12.9 all the way to redline. I've added a KB boost-a-pump as a precaution when we go to 10 psi and a more efficent blower, but I suspect we won't need it. I also use the factory MAP which has been a piece of cake to tune (using the Zdyne ECU). I've also tried the Aquamist system (still in my car, just disconnected), but haven't been happy with it. Mike Kojima swears by it (convinced me to get it), but I think there are issues with the vapor distribution in my supercharger manifold. I may need to add a second nozzle. As it stands, there are no power gains and it hurts throttle response (tried nozzles from 0.4mm to 1.0mm).
The GT30 sounds like a spectacular unit. Is it a cousin of the GT25's that the SupraTT guys use in the repalcement twin setup?
UL
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Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Northern VA
Yes this is a stupid question....
I know comptech makes a supercharger...
and a turbo is possible....
but is it possible to install the SC, and when a off the shelf turbo is ready, install it as well?
Supercharged Turbocharged s2000 ?
Flame or help me. Thanks.
I know comptech makes a supercharger...
and a turbo is possible....
but is it possible to install the SC, and when a off the shelf turbo is ready, install it as well?
Supercharged Turbocharged s2000 ?
Flame or help me. Thanks.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 7,414
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From: Toronto
Anything is possible with enough clever engineering, BUT, if one were to go with a super/turbo setup, you would probably want to run a roots-type blower to boost up the low rpm range while the turbo is spooling up. You could then run a big, hairy turbo for max power and not have to worry about turbo lag.
I have seen a Skyline engine with twin turbo's AND a supercharger. Cool piece of engineering, but pretty complicated.
Of course, the real issues at this point would be the ability of the stock driveline to get that power to the road reliably.
I have seen a Skyline engine with twin turbo's AND a supercharger. Cool piece of engineering, but pretty complicated.
Of course, the real issues at this point would be the ability of the stock driveline to get that power to the road reliably.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Houston
I'm 100% sure, after what happened to me this weekend (search for "Differential went SNAP..."), that a turbo would tear up the S2000 backend, unless you launch under 4,000 RPMs.
What would need to be done for a turbo S2K to not fall to pieces with all that power? I'm also wondering what people suggest for my SC setup, a Kaaz diff is probably going to replace my stock one - if that is what snapped.
Wesmaster
What would need to be done for a turbo S2K to not fall to pieces with all that power? I'm also wondering what people suggest for my SC setup, a Kaaz diff is probably going to replace my stock one - if that is what snapped.
Wesmaster
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From: Mountain View
demon said in http://www.s2000online.com/forums/showthre...?threadid=13688
[QUOTE][B]
Incidentally, I just got off the phone with the guys at Atomic Performance (www.atomicperformance.com) in California, who now have their S2000 turbocharging kit ready for installation. I believe the cost is $5500 (which includes labor) and they are reporting 310hp AT THE WHEELS.
[QUOTE][B]
Incidentally, I just got off the phone with the guys at Atomic Performance (www.atomicperformance.com) in California, who now have their S2000 turbocharging kit ready for installation. I believe the cost is $5500 (which includes labor) and they are reporting 310hp AT THE WHEELS.
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Joined: Feb 2001
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From: You wish
Wesmaster,
That's the beauty of a properly sized turbo. On an engine like ours, it could be fully spooled by 4000 rpm while providing strong boost all the way to redline (at 6 psi that would equate to about 160-170 lbs-ft at the wheels by 4000 rpm). The upside of this from a drivetrain standpoint is that it would reduce or eliminate the need for high rpm launches. You might be able to come off the line at 3000-4000 rpm and pull very hard.
In the end, that's really the key. If you don't shock the gears, our rear end should be able to sustain very high hp levels. The lower the rpm we can launch at, the less we shock the gears (I have to launch my CRX at about 1500 rpm for traction reasons and despite making 70% more power than stock, the tranny and clutch have been solid for 25-30k miles - I used to launch my previous car at 7000-8000 rpm and the throwout bearing was dead in 10k miles).
UL
That's the beauty of a properly sized turbo. On an engine like ours, it could be fully spooled by 4000 rpm while providing strong boost all the way to redline (at 6 psi that would equate to about 160-170 lbs-ft at the wheels by 4000 rpm). The upside of this from a drivetrain standpoint is that it would reduce or eliminate the need for high rpm launches. You might be able to come off the line at 3000-4000 rpm and pull very hard.
In the end, that's really the key. If you don't shock the gears, our rear end should be able to sustain very high hp levels. The lower the rpm we can launch at, the less we shock the gears (I have to launch my CRX at about 1500 rpm for traction reasons and despite making 70% more power than stock, the tranny and clutch have been solid for 25-30k miles - I used to launch my previous car at 7000-8000 rpm and the throwout bearing was dead in 10k miles).
UL