Spoon vs Mugen!!
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Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Melb
I would really like Elinetti's input into the Spoon side of things - particularly its factory etc.
I question the fact they only have 10 workers, especially given the fact that they do have engine dynos on site, and products such as their header has been designed with gas flow mapping etc. rather than merely test and tune.
Also, keep in mind that they have come up with products such as:
a) a 11000rpm civic
b) a clutchless (twin mode) system for the s2k
c) "street cams" for the s2k (I have been told these are not readily available, and I derive this information from Hot Version which had a testing of the yellow spoon s2k with these cams in the car)
Hardly products derived from only a little backyard garage.
Mugen makes a great product - however, do note that the header system has been designed for street useabilty in mind
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Joined: Oct 2000
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From: On the lakefront...
No harm, Pappy...always interested in spirited debate. 
But I will say that having driven the King Motorsports car, and my own car which has almost the same amount of Mugen go-fast goodies...that my car and King's car is FAR faster than stock. How does it compare with a fully outfitted Spoon car? I have no idea, but it walks stock S2000's. It's hilarious...
Once Elnetti arrives on this thread, ask him how many Mugen pieces are on the Advan/Spoon car. That will be telling.
The class that that car runs in isn't allowed to change the internals, as far as I know. I could be wrong about that...but I don't think so.
Spoon is definitely a small company...it's about that number of people as I said before. It's pretty common knowledge in Japan that Mugen is the Honda tuner of choice and that other tuners are riding Mugen's coat tails. But that's neither here nor there, that was just a question that I asked our hosts when we were in Tokyo in June. It was unanimous that Mugen was the top.
Anyway, good debate...always interested in that. If anyone would like more info, post or email me. I don't consider myself an expert, but I can help you find people who know far more than I do about what you want to get out of your S2000.
GTRPower said it best here...
Enjoy the ride!
But I will say that having driven the King Motorsports car, and my own car which has almost the same amount of Mugen go-fast goodies...that my car and King's car is FAR faster than stock. How does it compare with a fully outfitted Spoon car? I have no idea, but it walks stock S2000's. It's hilarious... Once Elnetti arrives on this thread, ask him how many Mugen pieces are on the Advan/Spoon car. That will be telling.
The class that that car runs in isn't allowed to change the internals, as far as I know. I could be wrong about that...but I don't think so.
Spoon is definitely a small company...it's about that number of people as I said before. It's pretty common knowledge in Japan that Mugen is the Honda tuner of choice and that other tuners are riding Mugen's coat tails. But that's neither here nor there, that was just a question that I asked our hosts when we were in Tokyo in June. It was unanimous that Mugen was the top.
Anyway, good debate...always interested in that. If anyone would like more info, post or email me. I don't consider myself an expert, but I can help you find people who know far more than I do about what you want to get out of your S2000.
GTRPower said it best here...
They are not comparable companies- even if you think they make comparable products.
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Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Thousand Oaks
I love how people say oh it makes 9-12 on they dyno.
Show it to me. I want to see this shtufffff.
Mugen and Spoon are both good companies. But Im tired of people saying one side is better than the other when I dont see any dyno plots of their car...just what they hear.
Anyways. ....I like this discussion....but I just want to see it on a graph. because I love visuals.
Show it to me. I want to see this shtufffff.
Mugen and Spoon are both good companies. But Im tired of people saying one side is better than the other when I dont see any dyno plots of their car...just what they hear.
Anyways. ....I like this discussion....but I just want to see it on a graph. because I love visuals.
) if you wanna know.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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From: JDM Land
Thanks for the compliment, Mingster!
But seriously, Greg... if you're ever up this way, lemme know... I'd be more than happy to let you try my car out. Just one caveat... you have to let me try YOURS if I come down to visit!
As I've said before... there are many ways to skin an S2K. The fun about modifying is that you make the car DISTINCTLY YOURS! Now, I'm obviously a Spoon man... but I also have nothing but the greatest respect for Mugen. After all, they compete in FORMULA ONE!
But I would have to say that Mugen's design philosophy for it's street car products is decidedly different from it's F1 and racing products. Consumer products are geared not only towards performance, but also streetability, and noise constraints. Mugen wants to produce a high-end product for people looking for a step up from the stock car. Kinda like AMG for Mercedes or M Division for BMW.
Actually, both Mugen and Spoon work closely with Honda in developing their products... how do you think they have such an extensive lineup of mods so shortly after the introduction of the car?
Spoon is more hardcore racing from a production car point of view. They give little to no consideration to noise or vibration levels... just what makes it go fast! Whether this translates into absolute HP gains or more drivability through the power band is up for debate (as we are obviously experiencing here!)... but there is no question that Spoon wins consistently in N1 racing based on production cars. Mugen is no slouch either... but the stuff they use on their N1 cars are typically not what you get for sale at the local shop.
I don't know how this applies to the S2K products... but if you ask any Civic/Integra street racer, 9 times out of 10, you'll find that Spoon stuff goes faster. Forget dynos... it's who finishes the quarter-mile FIRST that matters to these guys!
But for the typical S2K owner, drag racing is NOT what matters most... so this whole argument of Mugen vs. Spoon is really pointless, don't you think?
Here's my 2 cents worth...
Headers? Mugen or Spoon... both are excellent and offer much increased midrange power... more so than other headers I've experienced out there...
Exhaust? Mugen gives you a nice boost, but geared towards a "civilized" owner. Spoon, Amuse, and J's Racing... these 3 seem to give the maximum power gains... along with the maximum noise increases! After all, these are N1 Racing exhausts... what do you expect?!?
All the other mods? Up for endless hours of debate by everyone here on this board... after all, that's why we're all here, right? Just do what makes your butt-dyno happy... that's what I do!
But seriously, Greg... if you're ever up this way, lemme know... I'd be more than happy to let you try my car out. Just one caveat... you have to let me try YOURS if I come down to visit!
As I've said before... there are many ways to skin an S2K. The fun about modifying is that you make the car DISTINCTLY YOURS! Now, I'm obviously a Spoon man... but I also have nothing but the greatest respect for Mugen. After all, they compete in FORMULA ONE!
But I would have to say that Mugen's design philosophy for it's street car products is decidedly different from it's F1 and racing products. Consumer products are geared not only towards performance, but also streetability, and noise constraints. Mugen wants to produce a high-end product for people looking for a step up from the stock car. Kinda like AMG for Mercedes or M Division for BMW.
Actually, both Mugen and Spoon work closely with Honda in developing their products... how do you think they have such an extensive lineup of mods so shortly after the introduction of the car?
Spoon is more hardcore racing from a production car point of view. They give little to no consideration to noise or vibration levels... just what makes it go fast! Whether this translates into absolute HP gains or more drivability through the power band is up for debate (as we are obviously experiencing here!)... but there is no question that Spoon wins consistently in N1 racing based on production cars. Mugen is no slouch either... but the stuff they use on their N1 cars are typically not what you get for sale at the local shop.
I don't know how this applies to the S2K products... but if you ask any Civic/Integra street racer, 9 times out of 10, you'll find that Spoon stuff goes faster. Forget dynos... it's who finishes the quarter-mile FIRST that matters to these guys!
But for the typical S2K owner, drag racing is NOT what matters most... so this whole argument of Mugen vs. Spoon is really pointless, don't you think?
Here's my 2 cents worth...
Headers? Mugen or Spoon... both are excellent and offer much increased midrange power... more so than other headers I've experienced out there...
Exhaust? Mugen gives you a nice boost, but geared towards a "civilized" owner. Spoon, Amuse, and J's Racing... these 3 seem to give the maximum power gains... along with the maximum noise increases! After all, these are N1 Racing exhausts... what do you expect?!?
All the other mods? Up for endless hours of debate by everyone here on this board... after all, that's why we're all here, right? Just do what makes your butt-dyno happy... that's what I do!
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Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Thousand Oaks
Hey guys,
yeah I DO understand that dynos are not all that they are cooked to be.
But. Dyno's do reveal things like hp curve, and whether or not midrange HP or top end HP exist, or is gained from the mods.
And other than the ability of the driver....or tire pressure, suspension.
quarter mile times are better with better HP curves and higher horsees...so actually I do care what dynos say because it is because of dynos, that we can acheive the crazy times that those import tuners acheive.
so Im not really saying that I care mainly about peak horsepower, but a dyno plot does tell alot about everythign else.
Maybe Im not mentioning something...hmm.......
oh well..Im too tired to think..
Gnite.
yeah I DO understand that dynos are not all that they are cooked to be. But. Dyno's do reveal things like hp curve, and whether or not midrange HP or top end HP exist, or is gained from the mods.
And other than the ability of the driver....or tire pressure, suspension.
quarter mile times are better with better HP curves and higher horsees...so actually I do care what dynos say because it is because of dynos, that we can acheive the crazy times that those import tuners acheive.
so Im not really saying that I care mainly about peak horsepower, but a dyno plot does tell alot about everythign else.
Maybe Im not mentioning something...hmm.......
oh well..Im too tired to think..
Gnite.
