Spoon vs Mugen!!
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Originally posted by Prolene
"As a result of our quest for the ideal design for racing engines, Mugen developed the "twin loop-type silencer," in which the pipe is twisted into two loops and passes straight through the silencer twice."
Such an exhaust is Mugen's for the Civic and such; the S2000 Mugen exhaust does not employ the twin loop configuration.
"As a result of our quest for the ideal design for racing engines, Mugen developed the "twin loop-type silencer," in which the pipe is twisted into two loops and passes straight through the silencer twice."
Such an exhaust is Mugen's for the Civic and such; the S2000 Mugen exhaust does not employ the twin loop configuration.
Agreed. Also, as many of us here know, the OEM exhaust is licensed version of the Mugen twin loop design- both canisters are of based on that patent. Honda licensed it from Mugen...
Mugen tried many, many variations of the exhaust in both single and dual outlet, and the only way they could make power and be JASMA, and hence DOT/EPA, legal was with two outlets using high flow single pass canisters.
Of course, all that never matters to some people here...
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From: Melb
I don't see the point, really, in responding to your above post, Pappy, but you need to learn a little more about the Mugen exhaust. It provides torque, though I don't have the number right in front of me. I do have it at home...but it provides additional TORQUE across the entire powerband.
I am not going to get into a Spoon/Mugen debate. However, Greg, this statement does not make sense. If an exhaust produces Torque across the ENTIRE powerband, by definition, the power will increase as well.
Power is a function of torque and rpm.
This again is the fallacy of torque - what is important is POWER across the largest rpm range availabe.
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Joined: May 2001
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From: Mississauga
Peak horsepower is great for Drag Racing when proberly geared to take advantage of the the RPM range in which the horsepower appears, but I think you will find in virtually every form of motorsports (even Drag Racing) the greatest gains over the last decade have been made my smoothing out torque curves. Its relatively easy to tune for HP in a narrow RPM range, but it takes a large dose of technology to extend torque over a broad range.
I think that is absolutely fantastic what Honda has done with this engine. I used to own a 675HP "full race big block chev engine". This converts out to a whopping 80HP/L. There is no way this engine could be considered streetable and yet it had 25 years of drag racing development in it. The fact that the S2000 can produce 120HP/L and that is docile enough for my wife to drive blows me away, but lets face it without some sort of supercharging or loss of streetability this engine is virtually maxed out.
I have spent the last 7 months looking into modifying this car and I feel the end result is that unless a reliable Turbo setup comes along the ridulous amount of money spent to achieve very modest gains is insane. This car desparetly needs midrange power on the street. I don't doubt that the mods spoken of offer gains on the track but in reality revving 92+ db to achieve decent acceleration gets to be nerve racking in a short amount of time on the street.
Don't get me wrong I still love our S2000 for all of its exceptionally positive attributes, but most mods enhance the High RPM power of this car which only works to speed up the demise of the rest of the powertrain.
PS While my wife chooses to go topless next summer I will be picking up my 2002 Z06.
PSS For less than a thousand dollars I can increase HP 10% and compete with virtually any street car up to and including Ferrari's.
This completes my 2 cents worth, no go ahead and burn me down.
I think that is absolutely fantastic what Honda has done with this engine. I used to own a 675HP "full race big block chev engine". This converts out to a whopping 80HP/L. There is no way this engine could be considered streetable and yet it had 25 years of drag racing development in it. The fact that the S2000 can produce 120HP/L and that is docile enough for my wife to drive blows me away, but lets face it without some sort of supercharging or loss of streetability this engine is virtually maxed out.
I have spent the last 7 months looking into modifying this car and I feel the end result is that unless a reliable Turbo setup comes along the ridulous amount of money spent to achieve very modest gains is insane. This car desparetly needs midrange power on the street. I don't doubt that the mods spoken of offer gains on the track but in reality revving 92+ db to achieve decent acceleration gets to be nerve racking in a short amount of time on the street.
Don't get me wrong I still love our S2000 for all of its exceptionally positive attributes, but most mods enhance the High RPM power of this car which only works to speed up the demise of the rest of the powertrain.
PS While my wife chooses to go topless next summer I will be picking up my 2002 Z06.
PSS For less than a thousand dollars I can increase HP 10% and compete with virtually any street car up to and including Ferrari's.
This completes my 2 cents worth, no go ahead and burn me down.
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Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Schaumburg
Dyno chart for S2000 equipped with Mugen header and Mugen exhaust.
http://www.kingmotorsports.com/images/dyno/f20c.gif
If I read the chart collectly, maxium gain of 10 ps power and 12 kgfm torque at 6000 RPM. I hope someone can explain the relationship between ps and HP.
Couldn't find Dyno Cart for Spoon.
http://www.spoonsports.ca/s2k.htm
Quote from SpoonSports
"4-2-1 Header
Equal Length
Special 4-2-1 design allows for optimized mid to high range power.
Superior lightweight design reduces weight by 3.8Kg from the stock header.
Dyno tests show a gain of +10 HP on the wheel.
N1 Muffler
For racing applications.
Increases exhaust efficiency.
Single outlet designed for high exhaust flow.
Reduces stock muffler by 10.5KG.
Dyno tests show a 10 to 15 HP increase at the wheels (dependent on setup).
Header back system (Catalytic Jack included)"
Spoon header and Spoon exhaust increase maximum of 25 HP on the wheel. WOW. Does anyone know which RPM range this 25 HP gain at? I hope Spoon post their dyno on the website.
http://www.kingmotorsports.com/images/dyno/f20c.gif
If I read the chart collectly, maxium gain of 10 ps power and 12 kgfm torque at 6000 RPM. I hope someone can explain the relationship between ps and HP.
Couldn't find Dyno Cart for Spoon.
http://www.spoonsports.ca/s2k.htm
Quote from SpoonSports
"4-2-1 Header
Equal Length
Special 4-2-1 design allows for optimized mid to high range power.
Superior lightweight design reduces weight by 3.8Kg from the stock header.
Dyno tests show a gain of +10 HP on the wheel.
N1 Muffler
For racing applications.
Increases exhaust efficiency.
Single outlet designed for high exhaust flow.
Reduces stock muffler by 10.5KG.
Dyno tests show a 10 to 15 HP increase at the wheels (dependent on setup).
Header back system (Catalytic Jack included)"
Spoon header and Spoon exhaust increase maximum of 25 HP on the wheel. WOW. Does anyone know which RPM range this 25 HP gain at? I hope Spoon post their dyno on the website.
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Joined: Sep 2001
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From: St. Michael
As an 'undecided' voter, I would like to say this. 
hehe
Ok, what I wanted to say is:
When we talk of Torque and Horsepower, and compare how we want one more than another... that doesn't seem to make sense to me. I mean, from everything I have read, HP is just a result of Torque and engine speed. So if you want more HP at a certain RPM, you need more Torque. And if you want more Torque, you end up with more HP at that point, correct?
So aren't we just talking about the exact same thing, just from a different side?
I agree to the statement of wanting more torque. So I also say I want more HP!
Also, about PEAK HP. If a product gives a larger PEAK HP, that just means there is MORE torque at that RPM. So isn't that a good thing?
So unless we can view a chart/graph, we really don't know jack about the power that is gained by a certain product, because there needs to be power throughout the usable RPMs.
I hope I made some sense.
Don't take this as fact, but it is what I understand.
Maybe you can shed some light on this for me...
Thanks,
Shrubba
heheOk, what I wanted to say is:
When we talk of Torque and Horsepower, and compare how we want one more than another... that doesn't seem to make sense to me. I mean, from everything I have read, HP is just a result of Torque and engine speed. So if you want more HP at a certain RPM, you need more Torque. And if you want more Torque, you end up with more HP at that point, correct?
So aren't we just talking about the exact same thing, just from a different side?
I agree to the statement of wanting more torque. So I also say I want more HP!
Also, about PEAK HP. If a product gives a larger PEAK HP, that just means there is MORE torque at that RPM. So isn't that a good thing?
So unless we can view a chart/graph, we really don't know jack about the power that is gained by a certain product, because there needs to be power throughout the usable RPMs.
I hope I made some sense.
Don't take this as fact, but it is what I understand.
Maybe you can shed some light on this for me...
Thanks,
Shrubba
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 56
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From: Newport Beach
GTR Power,
You keep mentioning Mugen and DOT while in fact DOT is a U.S. agency (I work there) and Mugen parts are designed and made in Japan with slight mods made to them to allow fitment to U.S. market cars. In fact DOT doesn't have ANY regulations that would affect Mugen (or any aftermarket) exhaust systems. That's up to the EPA, ARB if it affects emissions and state law if it affects noise.
Please don't spread misinformation regarding the DOT.
Ted
You keep mentioning Mugen and DOT while in fact DOT is a U.S. agency (I work there) and Mugen parts are designed and made in Japan with slight mods made to them to allow fitment to U.S. market cars. In fact DOT doesn't have ANY regulations that would affect Mugen (or any aftermarket) exhaust systems. That's up to the EPA, ARB if it affects emissions and state law if it affects noise.
Please don't spread misinformation regarding the DOT.
Ted
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Posts: 630
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TedS2K
[B]GTR Power,
You keep mentioning Mugen and DOT while in fact DOT is a U.S. agency (I work there) and Mugen parts are designed and made in Japan with slight mods made to them to allow fitment to U.S. market cars.
[B]GTR Power,
You keep mentioning Mugen and DOT while in fact DOT is a U.S. agency (I work there) and Mugen parts are designed and made in Japan with slight mods made to them to allow fitment to U.S. market cars.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,895
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From: You wish
I'm not going to get involved in the Spoon vs. Mugen part of this. Both companies charge way too much money IMO. If I'd had another viable option for a header when I bought my Mugen I would have seriously considered it. A year later, I have lots of options. Too bad for me.
However, on the subject of the exhaust...
The only independent dynos of header and exhaust (Mugen) that I was able to obtain when I was looking (mid year 2000) were from our old friend VaporTrail. He bought and tested both. Header showed gains. I bought it. Exhaust did not. I passed.
Dynos aren't everything, but they're a good starting point.
UL
However, on the subject of the exhaust...
The only independent dynos of header and exhaust (Mugen) that I was able to obtain when I was looking (mid year 2000) were from our old friend VaporTrail. He bought and tested both. Header showed gains. I bought it. Exhaust did not. I passed.
Dynos aren't everything, but they're a good starting point.
UL
