Using Torque Wrenches
So at this point, my biggest concern is that I've over-torqued it. I haven't touched it since posting this yesterday.
I've read that with a crush washer, you should feel resistance, then a bit less resistance. When I torqued it I felt resistance, a bit less resistance and then more again and that's where I stopped. My concern is that this feels kind of like I stripped it. Should I just leave it until my next oil change to find out if I stripped the oil pan?!
Also a question, why does this even really need to be torqued down so high? 29 lb-ft seems like a lot of torque for something that just holds fluid in. There shouldn't be a lot of pressure on it that would cause it to back out.
I've read that with a crush washer, you should feel resistance, then a bit less resistance. When I torqued it I felt resistance, a bit less resistance and then more again and that's where I stopped. My concern is that this feels kind of like I stripped it. Should I just leave it until my next oil change to find out if I stripped the oil pan?!
Also a question, why does this even really need to be torqued down so high? 29 lb-ft seems like a lot of torque for something that just holds fluid in. There shouldn't be a lot of pressure on it that would cause it to back out.
Andrew, if it feels as if you stripped it, you may actually have cross threaded. You should always try to start bolt or nut by hand, and turn in/ on as far as you can before putting a wrench on it. Then snug down with a wrench. Using the torque wrench would be the last step.
Although my experience is with cast iron blocks and steel bolts, when you over tighten a steel bolt it tends to twist and snap, not pull out the threads. Use high strength bolts to mitigate this problem. As for aluminum engine parts, I have far less experience, but I do believe cross threading is more likely to strip threads than over tightening.
If you are fortunate and have stripped something, hopefully it is the bolt and not the pan. But the pan probably can be rethreaded if need be. If you have heard of taps and dyes, this is one use that a tap will have - to salvage buggered threads. There are also inserts like helicoils that can be used. If you find that your pan is damaged, all is not lost.
Although my experience is with cast iron blocks and steel bolts, when you over tighten a steel bolt it tends to twist and snap, not pull out the threads. Use high strength bolts to mitigate this problem. As for aluminum engine parts, I have far less experience, but I do believe cross threading is more likely to strip threads than over tightening.
If you are fortunate and have stripped something, hopefully it is the bolt and not the pan. But the pan probably can be rethreaded if need be. If you have heard of taps and dyes, this is one use that a tap will have - to salvage buggered threads. There are also inserts like helicoils that can be used. If you find that your pan is damaged, all is not lost.
@AndrewTheFurst Like you, when I started working on my S2000 I had no reference point for how much to tighten things, it always felt like it was too much, or too little and I was afraid of destroying my engine if something backed out. So I invested in a quality set of CDI torque wrenches (I'm looking to send them back for a tune up to make sure they're still in spec). My biggest advice is to get your wrench calibrated, otherwise you have no idea what setting it is at and will always be guessing. For all you know that wrench could be 20lbs off, or exactly spot on. Picking up a 25lb object to get a sense or trying to read on a forum about what a torque setting 'should' feel like is almost impossible to understand unless you've done it yourself many times. And even then after several years of doing all my own work I still use a torque wrench for everything just to be sure and not guess, from the little 8.7lb nuts for the injector cover to the lug nuts, I just simply never guess to be sure. I have 4 wrenches that cover the entire span from 5lbs to 150lbs and am confident of my work when complete. There are many owners here who have been wrenching on cars for a long time and this comes so naturally to them that they forget some of us simply didn't have any type of exposure like that... at all. Many make it sound easy, but it's the same as trying to read about how to ride a bike, and someone who's been riding since they were a kid explaining it in a few sentences as 'easy', 'no problem', 'been doing it since I was a kid'. The written word will not help you here.
So my advise, having been exactly in your shoes and terrified of stripping an important bolt is: get your wrench calibrated, then you will 100% know for sure that the 33 lbs you put on the drain plug is correct. There is really no other way forward, and you will save yourself a lot of grief.
Another piece of advise is to invest in several torque wrenches that cover the entire range that you need, because one wide range wrench will not work properly due to the mechanics of a wrench and accuracy. For instance your wrench states 10-80 lb ft, but its actual range is 16-80 lb due to the spring mechanics inside and how it impacts accuracy. All mechanical wrenches behave this way, so your true wrench range is to take the total it covers (80 lbs) and multiple that by 20%, = 16, that is your starting range. If your wrench was 1-100 then its starting range is 20-100. This is why it's important to have a range of wrenches that cover all the specs of your car. Don't use your Tekton 3/8 wrench for anything below 20 lbs to be safe, get a smaller range wrench for smaller nuts which will probably be in inch pounds and then just use a calculator to convert: Convert Foot Pounds
Recap:
1. Don't guess, get your torque wrench calibrated, the video zze86 posted is spot on if you want to do it yourself
2. Once the wrench is calibrated, then trust it, it will be at proper torque value when it clicks (not what you think or feel)
3. Use the proper wrench for the range you're working in, remember the 20% rule
4. Always store your wrenches at the zero'd out value, always. And before use if its been in your drawer for a while is to spin the wratchet head (not adjustor) back and forth several times to loosen the grease inside
5. If using an extension, use a crows foot and angle it at exactly 90 degrees and you won't have to adjust the range to compensate for length extension (another little known fact)
6. Have fun! Torquing your car to Honda OEM Japanese specs is a zen like experience, very satisfying when you finish your work knowing it's spot on
p.s. I learned all this the hard way, now I work the smart way.
So my advise, having been exactly in your shoes and terrified of stripping an important bolt is: get your wrench calibrated, then you will 100% know for sure that the 33 lbs you put on the drain plug is correct. There is really no other way forward, and you will save yourself a lot of grief.
Another piece of advise is to invest in several torque wrenches that cover the entire range that you need, because one wide range wrench will not work properly due to the mechanics of a wrench and accuracy. For instance your wrench states 10-80 lb ft, but its actual range is 16-80 lb due to the spring mechanics inside and how it impacts accuracy. All mechanical wrenches behave this way, so your true wrench range is to take the total it covers (80 lbs) and multiple that by 20%, = 16, that is your starting range. If your wrench was 1-100 then its starting range is 20-100. This is why it's important to have a range of wrenches that cover all the specs of your car. Don't use your Tekton 3/8 wrench for anything below 20 lbs to be safe, get a smaller range wrench for smaller nuts which will probably be in inch pounds and then just use a calculator to convert: Convert Foot Pounds
Recap:
1. Don't guess, get your torque wrench calibrated, the video zze86 posted is spot on if you want to do it yourself
2. Once the wrench is calibrated, then trust it, it will be at proper torque value when it clicks (not what you think or feel)
3. Use the proper wrench for the range you're working in, remember the 20% rule
4. Always store your wrenches at the zero'd out value, always. And before use if its been in your drawer for a while is to spin the wratchet head (not adjustor) back and forth several times to loosen the grease inside
5. If using an extension, use a crows foot and angle it at exactly 90 degrees and you won't have to adjust the range to compensate for length extension (another little known fact)
6. Have fun! Torquing your car to Honda OEM Japanese specs is a zen like experience, very satisfying when you finish your work knowing it's spot on
p.s. I learned all this the hard way, now I work the smart way.
Last edited by Thomas Guide; Aug 16, 2020 at 06:31 AM.
If the oil used is thinner and if it's in the threads of the drain plug then it will allow for a smoother and easier torquing speed, and may then possibly contribute to over torquing. The threads of the plug due to their size and forcing the oil through them will heat them and the oil up quickly, activating the properties of the oil and allowing for the oil to flow through all the threads and channels easier.
I theorize then that for this application it is best to use thicker oil, like a whale blubber, which may inhibit a faster torquing speed.
Hold my beer.
If the oil used is thinner and if it's in the threads of the drain plug then it will allow for a smoother and easier torquing speed, and may then possibly contribute to over torquing. The threads of the plug due to their size and forcing the oil through them will heat them and the oil up quickly, activating the properties of the oil and allowing for the oil to flow through all the threads and channels easier.
I theorize then that for this application it is best to use thicker oil, like a whale blubber, which may inhibit a faster torquing speed.
If the oil used is thinner and if it's in the threads of the drain plug then it will allow for a smoother and easier torquing speed, and may then possibly contribute to over torquing. The threads of the plug due to their size and forcing the oil through them will heat them and the oil up quickly, activating the properties of the oil and allowing for the oil to flow through all the threads and channels easier.
I theorize then that for this application it is best to use thicker oil, like a whale blubber, which may inhibit a faster torquing speed.
Since you wish to continue the dialog I do want to point out that as a (presumably) qualified engineer you could be expected to use the descriptor correctly. No, I am not a troll wishing to cause problems I am a qualified engineer and I do value correctness, unlike you. I did not raise the subject simply to cause problems I did so because of the frustration which I feel when those who know better (i.e. some manufacturers and at least one engineer) are content to perpetuate an incorrect unit simply because of common usage. Most engineers hold themselves to higher standards.
I predict that when Andrew changes his oil next time he will put a new washer on the drain bolt, start the bolt by hand, then put a torque wrench on it, and then with a smooth steady motion tighten to the click, and call it done. I think his oil pan and drain bolt will be fine. We shall see! Keep us posted Andrew!
I don't know which way is right or if there is any difference, but I take short stroke motions back and forth on the torque wrench rather than longer sweeping motions. It shouldn't make a difference but I just feel safer taking shorter strokes in case I start to sense a bolt going south on me.
I predict that when Andrew changes his oil next time he will put a new washer on the drain bolt, start the bolt by hand, then put a torque wrench on it, and then with a smooth steady motion tighten to the click, and call it done. I think his oil pan and drain bolt will be fine. We shall see! Keep us posted Andrew!
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