Originally Posted by Legal Bill,Sep 13 2006, 10:02 PM

Doesn't hold water with me Vito. Hood sure isn't announcing that the enemy is vulnerable. The Union troops are in and amongst the giant boulders and both Hood and Longstreet know that Hoods division will be destroyed. But hey, lets not wait a couple hours or even a day to get up behind them. Lets go in now and get everyone killed.

The hill isn't covered with cannon, but it is covered with infantry and earlier that day they expected no infantry on that hill. The plan was to march right over it to get to the ridge. Now the hill has infantry and the ground right in front of the Rebel positions is occupied.

The Union is spread out thin? Who says? Even if they are, the confederates don't know that.

The situation in the morning was bad. It was a lot worse as South began the attack. I don't see much for a good leader to take advantage of, except to maneuver to the right. Longstreet knows it too. He just isn't willing to take the risk and do the right thing. Funny that. He's willing to risk his life, but not willing to anger Lee.

What if he just sent Lee a nicely worded message? "Situation on the ground vastly different. Union troops the dug in behind boulders directly ahead of our lines. Union Infanty now occupies the Rocky Hill. Nothing on the high hill. We must continue to maneuver around to the right to take the high ground and flank the enemy." Wouldn't Lee like to know of the change? After all, the counter march took most of the day. Wouldn't Lee understand that the situation on the ground might have changed? AND that there may now be a plan of attack that would be much more effective?

Originally Posted by Legal Bill,Sep 13 2006, 09:02 PM

.....After all, the counter march took most of the day. Wouldn't Lee understand that the situation on the ground might have changed? AND that there may now be a plan of attack that would be much more effective?

Originally Posted by ralper,Sep 13 2006, 10:17 PM

Don't you almost get the feeling that Longstreet wanted to lose the battle? I suppose not conscientiously but perhaps subconscientiously, and that is why he is willing to follow Lee's orders.

Longstreet is in that age old predicament, do you do what you know to be right or do you follow orders. A reoccurring theme in every war that has ever been fought.
Unfortunately, tragically, Longstreet opts to follow orders.

Originally Posted by paS2K,Sep 13 2006, 11:07 PM

Interesting to speculate...added to the idea of revising Lee's order: How different the outcome of Day 2 might have been....if Longstreets countermarch had gone around to the SOUTH....instead of around to the north! I'm not sure of the topography (certainly more woods than fields/ orchard), BUT the mass of the Gray forces could have focused on the tail of the Union fish hook.....including Little Round Top.

Literally HOURS (and energy) were wasted in the countermarch that took place....giving all afternoon for more Union forces to move into position....then

Originally Posted by ralper,Sep 13 2006, 10:50 PM

Val, remember this is a novel and a character study. Also, I'm not so sure. The dynamics here are very unusual.

I think Bill asked a very valid question. Why didn't Longstreet send Lee a message that the situation on the ground is vastly different, and then proceed to do what he knew to be the right course of action.

The honorable thing to do is to follow orders except when it means certain death and defeat.

Originally Posted by Vitito,Sep 13 2006, 10:26 PM

....... I never associated Lee or Longstreet with the word tragic. Lee was convinced he could defeat the Union with maneuver on day 2. Formulated a plan to do it. He came close. Lee loved all his troops, loved Longstreet, vice versa. .....

Originally Posted by Legal Bill,Sep 13 2006, 10:46 PM

I think it all relates back to Lee's little talk with Longstreet before the countermarch. He suggested a good soldier must risk the destruction of the thing he loves. Longstreet takes Lee to mean that Lee thinks him too caring about the men. Longstreet concludes that this must be what Lee thinks is Longstreets motivation for favoring defensive warfare. So I think in the back of Longstreet's mind he is thinking "I'll show him, I can send them all in just like Jackson."

Originally Posted by Vitito,Sep 14 2006, 12:03 AM

Nah. Longstreet directs his men to attack Sickles corps in the peach orchard, decimates them. At the end of the day, another 10,000 Union casualties, compared to 7,000 Confederate casualties. They did not punch through the line though. Much credit has to be given to Union "generalship," leadership, and the manner in which the federal infantry is engaging. For two days, the fighting on both sides has been ferocious.