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The Formula 1 Thread - 2014

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Old Mar 18, 2014 | 02:17 AM
  #201  
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Originally Posted by gbduo
I think these are quieter because the turbos are so efficient. Remember noise is energy, so if they are quiet then the turbo is using the most amount of energy in the exhaust.
Noise can't be that much energy. Nobody ever talked about having NERS - (Noise Energy Recovery System).

Can't say I understand exhausts, but all the people who fit aftermarket exhausts are after both more power and noise are they not? Why does the same not apply?
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Old Mar 18, 2014 | 02:37 AM
  #202  
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Someone will correct my physics, but exhaust noise is largely a function of exhaust gas velocity. As the turbo is harvesting the momentum of the exhaust gases, the gas that finally exits the exhaust is much slower because it's been used to spin up the turbo. Also bear in mind the engine RPM has dropped from 18k to 15k, the quietness is essentially unavoidable.
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Old Mar 18, 2014 | 02:53 AM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by Dembo
Originally Posted by gbduo' timestamp='1395136077' post='23068163
I think these are quieter because the turbos are so efficient. Remember noise is energy, so if they are quiet then the turbo is using the most amount of energy in the exhaust.
Noise can't be that much energy. Nobody ever talked about having NERS - (Noise Energy Recovery System).

Can't say I understand exhausts, but all the people who fit aftermarket exhausts are after both more power and noise are they not? Why does the same not apply?
Yeh but you get noise in an aftermarket exhaust for different reasons, you are removing restrictions in the exhaust to reduce back pressure and allowing the engine to breathe easier.

In an F1 car, the turbo has been put there to extract the most amount of energy possible from the exhaust and that is largely heat and pressure but as those two combined create the distinctive noise, the noise is also reduced.

I'm not sure, I need to watch a few races to make my mind up on the new era. The engines are here to stay and if they got rid of that stupid 100Kg fuel limit and went back to refuelling in the pit stops, I reckon the racing would be much better as the engines are used more aggressively.
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Old Mar 18, 2014 | 03:00 AM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by chilled
Someone will correct my physics, but exhaust noise is largely a function of exhaust gas velocity. As the turbo is harvesting the momentum of the exhaust gases, the gas that finally exits the exhaust is much slower because it's been used to spin up the turbo. Also bear in mind the engine RPM has dropped from 18k to 15k, the quietness is essentially unavoidable.
But again, the 80s 1.5 V6 turbos were revving much lower - maybe 8K rpm IIRC, had a big turbo, and fuel restrictions in the race, and yet nobody would ever have complained about the lack of volume.
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Old Mar 18, 2014 | 03:37 AM
  #205  
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Those turbos wouldn't have been as efficient though. i do get your point, but ERS recovers energy from the Turbo too. I'm as disappointed as you. It can be improved I'm sure, but I'm going to miss the screaming V8's.
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Old Mar 18, 2014 | 03:47 AM
  #206  
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Originally Posted by Dembo
Originally Posted by Stoatmaster' timestamp='1395095750' post='23067471
Just watching 'Legends of F1 - Montoya' on Sky. Pretty sure he has a S2000 in silverstone in his garage!
With a badly fitting bonnet.
It's on a trickle charger, you can see the cable on the panning shots
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Old Mar 18, 2014 | 04:44 AM
  #207  
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Originally Posted by chilled
Someone will correct my physics, but exhaust noise is largely a function of exhaust gas velocity. As the turbo is harvesting the momentum of the exhaust gases, the gas that finally exits the exhaust is much slower because it's been used to spin up the turbo. Also bear in mind the engine RPM has dropped from 18k to 15k, the quietness is essentially unavoidable.

There's a lot more to it than that. If you've ever heard a car or motorbike engine run with no exhaust attached its seriously noisy, even at low revs. But i don't understand it well enough to explain it.
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Old Mar 18, 2014 | 05:27 AM
  #208  
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Originally Posted by Dembo
I quite liked the in car noise, but yes probably nicer on decleration with all the whistles and pops. The disappointing thing is the short shifting on acceleration, but that's as much to do with the increased torque as the engine design - the drivers saying sometimes they're 2 gears higher than last year. We didn't get any FOM graphics for the race or qualifying, but they did show some in the practice and whoever it was was changing up at about 12K rpm - so not even using the full 15K, and far short of last year's 18K.

But it can't be that simple. Chris Evans was talking about this this morning, and had Christian Horner and Ron Dennis on. Ron was saying they need to return to higher rev limits and more fuel - but obviously that's another redesign of the engines that certainly won't happen for a few years. But the infamous 80s 1.5 V6 turbos certainly weren't short of noise with much less revs, so why are these so quiet?
The old engines didn't have any electric motor help so were on the boil a lot more.

I suspect the volume is by and large because of the lower throttle usage. The cars have more torque than is needed, and a wedge of that torque is coming from the electric motors. The last few years KERS was used as a power boost where as now I bet the electric motor is being used more like road hybrids to save fuel out of corners. Low revs from the ICE and torque from the electrics to get up to speed, they don't want both on full whack as that will just spin the wheels so the ICE is barely breaking a sweat which means no induction/exhaust scream like we're used to.

To be honest I think engines are over regulated. They can spend as much as they want on the most minute wing changes but who the hell has a passion for aero? People love screaming engines they need to open up that avenue more and tweak the rules to reward reliability and efficiency rather than mandating a restrictive singular vision of what a power unit should be.
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Old Mar 18, 2014 | 06:01 AM
  #209  
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Originally Posted by PhilipGB
The old engines didn't have any electric motor help so were on the boil a lot more.
Yes they did!

I suspect the volume is by and large because of the lower throttle usage. The cars have more torque than is needed, and a wedge of that torque is coming from the electric motors. The last few years KERS was used as a power boost where as now I bet the electric motor is being used more like road hybrids to save fuel out of corners. Low revs from the ICE and torque from the electrics to get up to speed, they don't want both on full whack as that will just spin the wheels so the ICE is barely breaking a sweat which means no induction/exhaust scream like we're used to.
Clearly that's cobblers. Maybe out of the corners, but on the straights they still have a 1.6 V6 turbocharged internal combustion engine at full throttle whatever else the motors are managing to add.

To be honest I think engines are over regulated. They can spend as much as they want on the most minute wing changes but who the hell has a passion for aero? People love screaming engines they need to open up that avenue more and tweak the rules to reward reliability and efficiency rather than mandating a restrictive singular vision of what a power unit should be.
What changes would you make to the rules to reward reliability? You think reliability isn't a reward now? Always the problem with an "anything goes" approach is that it ends up being whoever has the most money wins, usually by a huge margin.
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Old Mar 18, 2014 | 08:15 AM
  #210  
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Originally Posted by Dembo
Originally Posted by PhilipGB' timestamp='1395149266' post='23068355
The old engines didn't have any electric motor help so were on the boil a lot more.
Yes they did!
The old Turbo engines not the V8's give me some credit man!

Originally Posted by Dembo
To be honest I think engines are over regulated. They can spend as much as they want on the most minute wing changes but who the hell has a passion for aero? People love screaming engines they need to open up that avenue more and tweak the rules to reward reliability and efficiency rather than mandating a restrictive singular vision of what a power unit should be.
What changes would you make to the rules to reward reliability? You think reliability isn't a reward now? Always the problem with an "anything goes" approach is that it ends up being whoever has the most money wins, usually by a huge margin.
I don't know that's why I'm an armchair critic and not an FIA rule maker. And it still is a who has the most money wins, and they are winning by huge margins. Unlimited innovation actually opens the doors for the smarter though poorer teams which is how teams like Williams, Lotus & Brabham prospered in the early days. Teams like Caterham and Marussia don't stand a chance against the might of Merc and Redbull's bottomless pockets to ever refine the smallest details of their aero packages.
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