Chris_Lum

So after all of the counterarguments, you DO agree with us. Good to know!

seems like you got something against ASM in particular, but whatever, this thread isn't just about ASM anyway. It has already been said by Gotuning and Kanayama-San that ASM parts aren't for everyone due to price, but they are entitled to price their parts how they want to.

Anyway, there would be nothing to debate about if these companies held copyrights in the U.S.

usdmej

lulz i think i've said it before regarding this topic, i'm on the fence with a foot on each side just trying to clear up the confusion where i can

i just think ASM is really put up on a pedestal here and people end up saying things that are a bit ridiculous in terms of idolizing them. i respect them as a company, but i have no illusions as to what niche they're trying to occupy.

Chris_Lum

Yeah I understand. I mean, I do agree ASM is overpriced. I think a lot of people agree, including those that do buy authentic ASM. But for whatever reason or another, we still buy them. I can only speak for myself, i wanted to buy authentic to support the company and ended up purchasing ASM b/c I bought it used at about ½ the price of new setup. It was between the ASM frp bumper + cf lip or Mugen SS front bumper. Both would end up around $2k. But I was leaning toward the Mugen b/c it’s completely dry carbon….way more worth it IMO.

I think for some, it IS a status thing, where people are simply proud to own the part. Just like the statuses of Gucci and Louis Vuitton in the handbag industry. Who says a Gucci bag is worth over 10x the price of low end bags? With my limited knowledge of handbags, I can guarantee the prices are way more than enough to cover materials & development, yet women still flock to them. If you think about how people are proud to purchase and own ASM parts, it would seem that they are surely succeeding at a similar business model as the expensive hand bag companies. So far they’ve gotten a lot of attention from their time attack cars and somewhat proven themselves, which has no doubt helped to elevate their brand image and legitimacy in motorsports.

So back on topic, although ASM may be overpriced, it is still unethical to make copies…and would be illegal if ASM held a copyright in the U.S. (just like with hand bags! )

GoTuningUnlimited

I try to avoid commenting on these kinds of threads but I wanted to chime in a little regarding ASM and their prices. ASM and Go Tuning Unlimited actually make very little profit with ASM products compared to pretty much everyone else in the industry. The prices are based on actual product costs of the items. ASM outsources their body parts to the Challenge Technology Center which produces arguably the highest quality body parts in Japan using multi-million dollar machinery so the cost of production at the factory is incredibly high. The parts are designed using full scale spacial plotter and 3D CAD and the molds are made by 5-axis mills which very few tuner companies do. Each mold is also used very few times unlike other companies who use it for the life of the product to ensure perfect fitment.

The Japanese retail price is then set at a markup above their cost to produce each piece, and trust me, it's a lot less than nearly every manufacturer out there. There is no markup for the design costs and R&D. Let me say this again because many people use this argument. There is no markup in the cost for R&D.

The USA retail prices are then priced to incorporate the cost of ocean freighting these items to the USA and cost to keep the parts IN STOCK at all times. We actually have reduced dealers margins in an effort to keep retail prices as low as possible for the end consumer. In the end, we actually make very little profit from ASM and we make much more money selling other products but we believe in ASM products so much we continue to stand behind it 100%.

GoTuningUnlimited

Just wanted to note that the point of my post was to explain why ASM parts are so expensive so people don't think they're priced like that for no reason. But that doesn't mean I don't agree that they are pricey. Many of the reasons that make ASM parts expensive may be unnecessary and there could be efforts to reduce costs. But then ASM would lose the essence of their whole philosophy about producing the highest quality parts possible, period.

1AP12NV

I realize that there will never be an end to this debate (especially in America where our immediate gratification focused culture will never put aside it's "I want it now" mentality in favor of a "I'll save to get the things I want" viewpoint), however I can't stand the ASM bumper example getting used. People use it all the time thinking it proves their viewpoint and it does nothing of the kind.

There is a difference between:

Looking at the rear end of a Porsche, being inspired by its lines and replicating them (in a way that fits with the S2000) on a new bumper you're designing.

... and ...

Purchasing one ASM rear bumper, making a mold off of it, and selling cheaper copies.

Buy what you want, but realize that without ASM, Amuse, Ings, whoever making the originals, the knock-offs won't exist (these companies won't design / manufacture their own originals). It really is damaging the industry to not support the manufacturers of original parts.

I don't care where a product is made, if there was a US-based manufacturer making original parts that looked like great and were made to the same standards (yes I've personally compared and if you haven't you shouldn't have an opinion on this topic) I'd be all over them. Exclusivity means nothing to me. Quality and supporting the people actually designing products is what matters in my book.

RUEHL925

To usdmej
First your questioning my ethics because the company I worked for? Your joking right? You sound not only ignorant but childish just off that statement alone. Second did you just call a mold maker or a tech a designer?.. You are kidding right? I dont think Ive heard such a bs statement in a long time.... So you grab a pencil and a piece of paper and go trace the Mona Lisa, that makes you a artist right? If anyone here has questionable ethics it sounds like it might be you.

usdmej

it was my fault for going away from the topic so i'll keep it short.

A+F is nothing more than an image brand whose main focus is to sell expensive clothes to teenagers. and it wasn't even the fact that you were a janitor or a paper pusher with them. you were a concept designer of all things. so to call ME childish and ignorant? . . .

and in response to the designer statement, you originally made it seem that it was effortless to create a copy of a product. but it's not, there's labor and financial risk involved for the company as well. and since that's the only problem you had with my post was that no credentialed "designer" was involved in the making of a copy, i see very little ethical dilemna there beyond you caring too much about image, but i guess any explanation about that wouldn't be lost on you.