[QUOTE]Originally posted by Garyj
[B]

Actually, the old argument goes: if there isn't a God, then believers are none the worse off - as are unbelievers.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JonasM
[B]

I keep wondering when this bit of 'history' will stop being repeated. There's plenty of evidence that many, if not most of our founders, though somewhat religious (mostly Deists), despised the Christian religion as one of the worst offenders when it came to bloodshed and oppression.

 

" THE RIGHT TO LEAVE "

I was born here and I would like to officially remove myself from all the times the writer mentions the words, "we" and "our". It look's like the "CliffsNotes" to Mein Kampf.

S2K Fan -
Go back and read quotes from the "founding fathers" and posts from this thread with an open mind. If you do that, I think you will come to the conclusion that both groups contain people whose opinions on church and God run the full spectrum. Because of this, I think everything in government and everything sanctioned by the government should be devoid of religious references of any kind. And as far as the people who lost their lives fighting for this country, I'm sure significant portions of them were atheists and agnostics. Maybe their beliefs should be represented in this nation's motto and pledge of allegiance, also. Religion is a personal matter and has no place in government.

 

Never thought of it that way.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Garyj
[B]This is incorrect.

 

Garyj -
I will concede what you have claimed about religion and its positive contributions to the world, but you must concede that most of the wars in this world have been started as a result of religion. Slavery in this country was justified from the Bible. Religion, like everything else, is a double edged sword.

 

You make your statement about faith and reason being incompatible like it's a known conclusion. That is not the case. Many believe (I happen to be one of them) that faith and reason are compatible. Not only compatible, but complimentary. One of the most influential theological books of the 70's was called FAITH AND REASON by Nels Ferrey (Sp?). Some of the most reasonable people on earth have been, and are people of faith.

I must confess here, I'm afraid I'm taking this thread off topic. I don't mean to get a theological or philosophical debate going - that would take much more than our .02, and that's all I called for in the beginning.

And yes, I was not trying to come on heavy with Pascal's wager. I was just responding to a comment to which it fit so well.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BDMonk
[B]Garyj -
I will concede what you have claimed about religion and its positive contributions to the world, but you must concede that most of the wars in this world have been started as a result of religion.

 

Well, maybe I didn't make my point very well. It's not personal beliefs that are especially relevant - we're talking about political organization as reflected in religious freedom. Both of the gentlemen you mentioned were, as you say, Deists. Essentially, that means that they disavowed ALL revealed religion and completely renounced the role of faith in their life. As Deists, and being of the Natural Rights school of thought, they realized that bringing religion into public discourse adds nothing of value, and has a strong tendency to corrupt. Again, it's not personal beliefs that matter, it's backing those beliefs with force that they realized was the danger. And I'm sorry to say, but the evidence I've seen says pretty clearly that most of the founders were opposed to the teachings of Chritianity. It's interesting that half a century after the establishment of the United States, clergymen were complaining that no president up to that date had been a Christian. In a sermon that was reported in newspapers, Episcopal minister Bird Wilson of Albany, New York, protested in October 1831: "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism." The attitude of the age was one of enlightened reason, tolerance, and free thought.

Did you know that something like only 7% of the US population were members of any church at the beginning of the 1800's? It was really only in the late 1800's that religion had much visibility in the public arena.

Just to set some of the record straight: The founders were a mixed lot, but many saw no reason to bring religion into government - it would only destroy the freedoms that they fought for.

James Madison - frequently wrote against Chritianity, mostly due to it's bloody history. "Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." and "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."

John Adams - similar attacks - "Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?" - in a letter to Thomas Jefferson. And another line which I regard as true: "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

Thomas Jefferson: "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

George Washington - also a Deist - "... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative."

Benjamin Frankln - a particularly appropriate quote, given the current events: "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."

Thomas Paine - all-out atheist - "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. "

Ethan Allen - "I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism makes me one; "

Abraham Lincoln - His former law partner, William Herndon, said of him after his assassination: "[Mr. Lincoln] never mentioned the name of Jesus, except to scorn and detest the idea of a miraculous conception. He did write a little work on infidelity in 1835-6, and never recanted. He was an out-and-out infidel, and about that there is no mistake."
------

(As to good works, were you aware that something like 85% of all Nobel Prize winners in the sciences are atheists? I think they've contributed greatly.)

I am happy to live in a place where we can actually discuss this, though. I just want to make sure it stays that way.

Jonas

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Garyj
[B]

You make your statement about faith and reason being incompatible like it's a known conclusion.