"Under God," Pledging is Out - Your .02!
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From: Laurel
[QUOTE]Originally posted by magician
[B]In virtually every native American civilization religion was central to the social and political organization, and they fared pretty well till the Europeans arrived and slaughtered them.
(Anybody for increasing the defense budget?
[B]In virtually every native American civilization religion was central to the social and political organization, and they fared pretty well till the Europeans arrived and slaughtered them.
(Anybody for increasing the defense budget?
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From: Longmont, CO
Originally posted by jschmidt
This is historical mythology. They used to kill each other, enslave each other, and steal women from each other (before Europeans came and killed them.)
Any other examples?
This is historical mythology. They used to kill each other, enslave each other, and steal women from each other (before Europeans came and killed them.)
Any other examples?
I think there's a difference between having "fared pretty well" (ie, "they existed for a while") and having a good quality of life for their citizens.
Anybody know how much the Romans integrated their pantheon with their politics? I seem to remember from my hazy highschool days that the two were quite closely tied. Which of course led to the slaughter of many a non-believer. Again, not a good example of mixing the two.
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From: Yorba Linda, CA
Originally posted by jschmidt
This is historical mythology. They used to kill each other, enslave each other, and steal women from each other (before Europeans came and killed them.)
Any other examples?
This is historical mythology. They used to kill each other, enslave each other, and steal women from each other (before Europeans came and killed them.)
Any other examples?
Evidently the subtlety was lost; let's be specific.
The Hopi.
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From: Laurel
Originally posted by magician
When I posted that generalization it was with the expectation that the reader would understand that there are specific instances which answer the question.
Evidently the subtlety was lost; let's be specific.
The Hopi.
When I posted that generalization it was with the expectation that the reader would understand that there are specific instances which answer the question.
Evidently the subtlety was lost; let's be specific.
The Hopi.
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From: Signal Hill, SoCal
Originally posted by TrojanHorse
Ok, enough banter, here is an actual quote from the times.
When President Eisenhower signed the "under God" into the Pledge in 1954 he announced:
"In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future. From this day forward, the millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and every rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty."
That sounds a whole lot like swearing to the Christian God being enforced by the the government to me.
Ok, enough banter, here is an actual quote from the times.
When President Eisenhower signed the "under God" into the Pledge in 1954 he announced:
"In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future. From this day forward, the millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and every rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty."
That sounds a whole lot like swearing to the Christian God being enforced by the the government to me.
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From: Cape Girardeau
Originally posted by Magician
The faithful frequently condemn the unfaithful for their beliefs; but the unfaithful are guilty of the same behavior. To label religious doctrine as a "fairy-tale" is to engage in the same sort of intolerance of which the religious are accused.
Since this is directed at me allow me to retort. To label religious doctrine as fairy-tale is simply stating the fact, not intolerance. Believe what you wish, but do not confuse it with fact.
Religious people are, by and large, no more nor less moral than non-religious people. If you cite examples of religious people's immorality as hypocrisy, please don't do it with an air of superiority. We are all hypocrites at one time or another; our actions contradict our professed beliefs.
Let us not forget that it is the religious people that profess to be better when many times they are equally as bad or worse, it is not the atheists that profess to be better. To me, this makes the very same action by both worse on the part of the religious person by virtue of the fact that they profess to be better.
They seem to forget that Christ also said "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet" (Matt. 10:14, KJV). In other words, tell them the gospel, but if they don't want to believe, go elsewhere.
Studied though you seem to be you are not quite qualified to paraphrase the words of the Bible, let us do that for ourselves. Secondly, it would do you good to spend more time studying the origins of these things and not their miserable translations. Get a good handle on the languages the Bible was written in before you quote it so fluidly, the lines you have quoted throughout your very well written post are up to much debate. Tell me, what is the Aramaic word for dust? Gotcha'.
I am a Christian, which means that I believe that Jesus Christ was God in the form of a man, that he died to take away the curse of man's sin, that he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, and that by believing this my soul will be in heaven with Him after I've died.
Don't you mean that's what being a Christian means to you? Let us not forget that it is this very same God that created sin, and the intrinsic human flaw and weakness to follow it.
If you're as studied as you profess to be with your oleo tranquillior post then you will know the answer to the question I have for you. Before Jesus came there were a fair number of people that lived and died
The faithful frequently condemn the unfaithful for their beliefs; but the unfaithful are guilty of the same behavior. To label religious doctrine as a "fairy-tale" is to engage in the same sort of intolerance of which the religious are accused.
Since this is directed at me allow me to retort. To label religious doctrine as fairy-tale is simply stating the fact, not intolerance. Believe what you wish, but do not confuse it with fact.
Religious people are, by and large, no more nor less moral than non-religious people. If you cite examples of religious people's immorality as hypocrisy, please don't do it with an air of superiority. We are all hypocrites at one time or another; our actions contradict our professed beliefs.
Let us not forget that it is the religious people that profess to be better when many times they are equally as bad or worse, it is not the atheists that profess to be better. To me, this makes the very same action by both worse on the part of the religious person by virtue of the fact that they profess to be better.
They seem to forget that Christ also said "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet" (Matt. 10:14, KJV). In other words, tell them the gospel, but if they don't want to believe, go elsewhere.
Studied though you seem to be you are not quite qualified to paraphrase the words of the Bible, let us do that for ourselves. Secondly, it would do you good to spend more time studying the origins of these things and not their miserable translations. Get a good handle on the languages the Bible was written in before you quote it so fluidly, the lines you have quoted throughout your very well written post are up to much debate. Tell me, what is the Aramaic word for dust? Gotcha'.
I am a Christian, which means that I believe that Jesus Christ was God in the form of a man, that he died to take away the curse of man's sin, that he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, and that by believing this my soul will be in heaven with Him after I've died.
Don't you mean that's what being a Christian means to you? Let us not forget that it is this very same God that created sin, and the intrinsic human flaw and weakness to follow it.
If you're as studied as you profess to be with your oleo tranquillior post then you will know the answer to the question I have for you. Before Jesus came there were a fair number of people that lived and died
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From: Laurel
The Washington Post had an interesting story on this today:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...0-2002Jul5.html
Here's a quote from the story:
"Based on contemporary news reports and congressional records, it's fair to say that although the Knights of Columbus, a fraternal Catholic organization, began the movement to insert the words into the pledge, a sermon by the Rev. George M. Docherty was the catalyst for action. The pastor was intent on pushing the United States to distinguish itself from communist countries by acknowledging God's role in American society."
In a sidebar they printed an excerpt of the particular sermon delivered before Eisenhower:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...1-2002Jul5.html
"It is a fight for the freedom of the human personality. It is not simply man's inhumanity to man. It is Armageddon, a battle of the gods. It is the view of man as it comes down to us from Judaio-Christian civilization in mortal combat against modern, secularized, godless society."
So it wasn't just a way of distinguishing us from Russians (though that was used as a manipulation for this and many other public intrusions during that time.) It was really, in the eyes of this supposedly holy zealot, a way to wage "mortal combat" on those who didn't believe. I wonder what Docherty -- left to his own devices -- might have been willing to force on nonbelievers...
Oh, in other religious news, "A high-ranking Lutheran pastor has been suspended from his duties and ordered to apologize to all Christians for participating with Muslims, Jews, Sikhs and Hindus in an interfaith prayer service in New York's Yankee Stadium after Sept. 11."
"To participate with pagans in an interfaith service and, additionally, to give the impression that there might be more than one God, is an extremely serious offense against the God of the Bible," the Rev. Wallace Schulz, the Missouri Synod's national second vice president, wrote in the suspension letter.
Catch this one at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...1-2002Jul5.html
Yea, I want these people giving me moral guidance.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...0-2002Jul5.html
Here's a quote from the story:
"Based on contemporary news reports and congressional records, it's fair to say that although the Knights of Columbus, a fraternal Catholic organization, began the movement to insert the words into the pledge, a sermon by the Rev. George M. Docherty was the catalyst for action. The pastor was intent on pushing the United States to distinguish itself from communist countries by acknowledging God's role in American society."
In a sidebar they printed an excerpt of the particular sermon delivered before Eisenhower:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...1-2002Jul5.html
"It is a fight for the freedom of the human personality. It is not simply man's inhumanity to man. It is Armageddon, a battle of the gods. It is the view of man as it comes down to us from Judaio-Christian civilization in mortal combat against modern, secularized, godless society."
So it wasn't just a way of distinguishing us from Russians (though that was used as a manipulation for this and many other public intrusions during that time.) It was really, in the eyes of this supposedly holy zealot, a way to wage "mortal combat" on those who didn't believe. I wonder what Docherty -- left to his own devices -- might have been willing to force on nonbelievers...
Oh, in other religious news, "A high-ranking Lutheran pastor has been suspended from his duties and ordered to apologize to all Christians for participating with Muslims, Jews, Sikhs and Hindus in an interfaith prayer service in New York's Yankee Stadium after Sept. 11."
"To participate with pagans in an interfaith service and, additionally, to give the impression that there might be more than one God, is an extremely serious offense against the God of the Bible," the Rev. Wallace Schulz, the Missouri Synod's national second vice president, wrote in the suspension letter.
Catch this one at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...1-2002Jul5.html
Yea, I want these people giving me moral guidance.