Jon, it's one thing to accept religion and practice it, but I believe it is a completely different thing to because overly zealous about one's religion. Those who are Christian and keep it to themselves, I respect that. However, I have met many people who believe that their religion is fact, and therefore come off as ignorant and rude. It is one thing to believe in something, and an altogether different thing to hold other people to your standards. I'm not claiming you or Gary are like this (I presume not, you are quite courteous with your responses), but those people are the ones that truly disturb me.

I have had people give me dirty looks or make comments when I use the phrase "goddammit", because it offends them. Yet, it is equally offensive to me for these people to use a god-extolling phrase in my presence (since I'm an athiest), but I ask for no apologies.

One thing that really eats me up is the fact that hypocrites like Jesse Jackson are actually respected by some groups. I also don't like it when people shield their ignorant and offensive positions with religion. The easiest example of this is with homosexuality...just as we shouldn't discriminate by race, we shouldn't do it by sexual orientation.

About your last comment...if I chose to believe in the Bible, and I died and found out I was wrong, I would personally feel that my life had been a farce, because religion is supposed to be one of the most important things in your life. If one of the most important things in my life turned out to be untrue, I'd be quite upset. However, if I didn't believe in it, yet it turned out to be right, well hey, god forgives, doesn't he? I've always said...if god actually came down to this earth and let me know he was real, I'd be the first to sign up as a believer.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jay Li
[B]Jon, it's one thing to accept religion and practice it, but I believe it is a completely different thing to because overly zealous about one's religion.

 

As for God coming down and showing that He is real, what would it take? How would you know it was God? I mean, are you wanting fire from heaven? A voice out of the blue? Your car to suddenly have an indescribably powerful engine without you modding it?

Yes, the "indescribably powerful engine" works for me!

 

Jon, as much as I would love to believe in an afterlife (especially one like heaven), I can't bring myself to believe in one. To me, it just seems too farfetched that there would be a mystical quality to human life. I don't believe that he would focus on just humans (like cthree said, the universe is so large, why would it be just us?). Also, there are so many religions...why would I be convinced that Christianity is the correct one? What would god do in the case of someone who was never exposed to Christianity? What about a baby who died during birth? How would they be treated in terms of getting into heaven or hell? I think you can see where I'm going with this...there's just so many questions that can't be answered.

As for proving it to me...if god came down and made him/herself visible to me and said, "Jay, believe in me, I am real," then I would be satisfied. I don't like digging too deeply and saying oooh, maybe this is a sign of god. I think religion should be personal, and unless I have a personal experience confirming the existence of god, I won't believe it.

I could be very wrong here, but from what I understand, god does allow for forgiveness even if you do not believe in him during your real life. From the people I have talked to, you just have to be repentant in your heart, and he will forgive you. Again, that is just what my Christian friends have told me.

 

Great post and I'll try to answer as best I can.

Who else would God concentrate on in the universe? I know of no other life out there and as far as I know, the Bible does not speak of any other life. Then again, anything is possible and I won't discount that there might be something out there. That said, how do you know that they also don't believe in God? That they too are not offered salvation? We don't, so we can't discount them.

In the case of someone who has never been exposed to Christianity, there are a few avenues. One, God would judge them based on what they did with what they knew. For example, a "heathen" from the jungle that never heard of God would be judged by what he did with what he was taught. Then again, you must remember that God knows the hearts (ie, the desires and motives, etc, etc) of each person - He would know what they were living their life for. In the case of an unborn baby, it has not sinned and is therefore "perfect" so it should go to heaven. However, I can't say I know for sure as the Bible does not (to my knowledge) say anything on the subject. I would have to fall back on the scripture that says that God will deal fairly with us all.

If you do something "wrong", you obviously should be repentant in your heart about it. However, being sorry isn't enough - you have to ask for forgiveness for what you did, both from the person(s) you did it to AND to God. If you are repenting, you must be repenting to someone...right? Some might say that you only need to fix it with the person, but they are forgetting God. Being sorry is all well and good, but it's not enough. You have to put your "being sorry" into action. Just "being sorry" isn't enough if you don't do something about it.

As well, looking at the big picture, the path to salvation and eternal life is very clearly laid out: 1) repent (ie, say you are sorry for all that you did, and mean it!), 2) be baptized (immersed in water, symbolising the dying of your "old" self and the birth of your "new" self), and 3) infilling of the Holy Spirit (God's very Life living in you).

What good is it to just be sorry for things? You've got to go further, otherwise it's pretty much useless. Sure it makes you a better person (and helps clear up conflict), but from God's perspective you're only taking the first step. In His eyes, it's all or nothing - to go halfway isn't good enough....

I couldn't have smiled any wider when I read what you said about knowing God is real, because that's the only way it SHOULD be. People today go to church and think that they are Christians. Thing is, they think that going to church is all that is required, when it is clear from the Bible that a PERSONAL relationship (like you said) is what is required. "Religion" is personal. If it's not, something is missing.

So, basically, what you want is the right way to go. Some people are lucky enough to have God show them in one way or another that He is real and cares for them without them ever having to come looking. Others go looking and those ones always do find Him. It'd be nice if you didn't have to do a thing and He would come and call you, sure, but I guess only time will tell who will make the first step.

Thanks for the post - nice to see you're thinking about what I'm saying, at least, and not being completely dismissive. Like I said previously, I know what it's like to be in your shoes and think as you do.

 

Shush, you - you already know what you know and don't need an indescribably powerful engine to sway you.

 

You're right. Sorry, I was just reverting to my old ways! However, not to convince me, but I'd still like that indescribably powerful engine.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Garyj
[B]

You're right.

 

That is why there are so many "Born Again" Christians in prison. You can live life like a complete scumbag, murder a few schoolkids, then find Jesus on Deathrow and you are all good to go to Heaven.

That is my plan. Live my life as the atheist I am, and then when I am on my deathbed find a Catholic Priest to confess to and all my bases are covered. I was already baptized when I was a baby before I had a say in the matter so I have that avenue covered too!

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TrojanHorse
[B]

That is why there are so many "Born Again" Christians in prison.