Building a system for my S2K
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From: Gainesville
Man, this is putting a bad taste in my mouth.
Tej, well, if there is no need to run 8v, then no point in me upgrading. It'll just cost me more money. Yeah, maybe we need to check out some of the Alphasonik dealers in Florida and pick up the PMA4150. You could buy that and run your whole system. Then I will be wondering why the hell I didn't do that in the first place.
I'm getting very close to telling them to take it out and leave me the wiring! Then I could get something else.
At this point, I'm thinking of the JL 500/5 and the JL stealthbox. I could still stay with the Clarion 745 and upgrade the Focals to the KP's, and add some Focals for rear fill (since the JL Audio 500/5 would be perfect for that). Then my system would be GREAT!
Nate
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
DANG this thread runs fast... i had actual work to do... so, i'm way behind. still, here's my intial response.
bang for buck - the KP's should be better for you. again, if you can find a set of K2's -- look into them.
the 300/2 and 500/1 could be a good solution if you chose to go that route. but again you're talking about almost doubling the power handling for the fronts... so be careful. but then again -- just about any other amp outputing 100 Wrms x 2 for fronts (KP's) and 400-500 Wrms solution for the sub would work. if the JL is hecka more money -- i wouldn't say it is worth it. the Audison SRx 3 (while an oddball amp) also remains a legitimate solution. it is lower in power that your other options, but power wise it isn't way off or anything.
well, if nothing else - these guys are good to work w/ you and based upon your descriptions your friend does good work. and that is of value to you.
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise. 
a sealed sub can get you the bass you want into the car... but the sealed sub isn't as efficient as a ported sub.
so, if you had a car that got 40 mpg and a car that got 25 mpg... and wanted to drive the same distance, what is your solution to get there? more gas.
in this case, a sealed sub will require more power (and power handling) to get the same output. but it is entirely possible to get there. and YES you can get a pretty good flat response out of a ported enclosure sub, but it takes no small amount of design effort to do it.
before getting the TREO moved to a sealed enclosure, be sure to check that it can work in a sealed box... not all subs are designed for all applications... some are designed to work sealed only, others ported only, and others free air. some are even useable in all cases.... if you're not sure how to check, let me know.
and why don't they listen to the customer? i dunno. i can make some guesses, but most of them aren't particularly nice...
---------------------------
now, moving on from there....
the one thing that this shop did wrong was not listen to you... either that, or they didn't have the experience and knowledge to know how to properly meet your needs.
i also strongly work to use my local shops b/c i like having the local service. simultaneously though -- if i cannot get what i want from them at an appropriate price, i will go to outside sources to obtain the products i'm interested in.
i recently bought the 8500 X50 to upgrade my 8500. before ordering from SBHCorp like so many here have done (as i did before), i went to my local shop which has just recently started dealing Escort. i gave them the price, they couldn't even come down from MSRP to get close to it... so, i went back to SBHCorp and told my local shop that i did.
give them a chance to make it right, but if these guys continue to show this kind of ignorance -- you need to step in as the knowledgeable customer and have it done your way. if they are truly service bent -- they will work for you.
look - i think you guys know i'm a EJ gearhead in a big way... Nate, do you know how many salesman and installers i've educated in my time? sheesh, my wife can out talk a lot of stereo sales guys just from hanging out w/ me! 
it's funny to watch them get own3d too...
regarding ZSAK's comments -- here's my hypothesis. why is Nate's front speakers so 'not loud enough'?
because they don't know that the Memphis cannot reproduce the power they think it can... they have them wired for 55 Wrms / side on a coaxial. 55 Wrms isn't that low, but i have my doubts about the capabilities and reality of the Memphis' rating.
"For the time being, he should concentrate on getting the front to 100% If he is still not happy, then rears time. "
Nate:
"Being an 8-volt unit will make a difference as well (compared to the Clarion's 4 volt). NO. it won't make a LICK's difference from the 4V to 8V upgrade. if the system is setup right -- it won't matter. don't waste your money. if you prefer the look and ease of use of the Eclipse -- then those are reasons. the 8 V is no reason. it's like putting a boost gage on a non-boosted car. it does nothing for you.
and did you get a DCI? if so, be sure to consider it before making any deck upgrades. honestly -- the Clarion is a nice looking deck... i do not see it as being the issue.
regarding the TREO sub .. i'm looking at the 10" SS. wanna know what's really wrong with what i'm seeing? (i do not know how i missed this the other day) they don't list a recommended enclosure!! NONE. they do state, "Optimized for small to medium sealed, vented, infinite baffle, and bandpass enclosures." how can it be optimized for everything? it's either optimized for one or the other...
dude, that just isn't right. a sub's enclosure is almost as important as the sub itself. and how can you pair that off w/o some knowledge of what the sub requires?
which means your installer may have your sub sounding like ass b/c he just got unlucky w/ the enclosure. maybe he can call TREO and get some better recommendations on how to build the enclosure.
and yes -- as i agreed before -- the Eclipse sub cannot work w/ this amp. there's no way you can get one of the Al subs to run at a 1 ohm load. you just can't do it.
and a sealed enclosure IS easier to build.... but a good ported enclosure (w/ tight flat bass) is a 100x's harder! it is do-able, but it is NOT easy by any means. and honestly, i don't think these guys have the technical expertise to design a proper ported enclosure... so God himself only knows what they built you. i can build a ported enclosure that will sound like ass w/o any additional effort from a sealed...
in the end Nate -- i so wish you leaved nearby. i could go w/ you to make sure you got what you wanted. and we'd have you setup and done already. and you'd love it... (or else... )
Originally posted by natedoggs2k
AWESOME FEEDBACK!
Thanks.
Okay, I do plan on upgrading the Focals for sure. I was going to go 165KP, but I see that you also recommend 165K2P. So, which should I go for for that MB Quart like sound? I wanted to go with the 165KP because it won't cost me anything to bump up to them, but the 165K2P's would be quite a jump up in price. So, will the 165KP's be okay?
Well, I like the Kicker's power, but I don't like the Kicker's size. I am trying to conserve as much space as possible in my trunk area. I would much rather find two smaller amps and put one in each side of the trunk. Maybe something like a JL 300/2 for mids/highs and a 500/1 for the sub. Sound like an idea? Then it gets me to that magic number of 150x2 for mids highs and 500 on bass. The alternative is like you said. A 4x150 @ 4ohms.
As for the sub, something has to be done about that. I told them I wanted sealed, but they swore the ported would be better. Now, I realize that having a convertible makes it harder to get bass in the car. But, for those of you with sealed 10" subs, are you still getting adequate bass and still getting clean, clear, tight, hard hitting bass? Mine sounds like I have a Bazooka tube in the trunk. It's quite horrible. But it sure does rattle the hell out of things.
This almost makes me want to just get the JL10w6 Stealthbox made for the S2K. Would that be a better option? Otherwise, I could redo the TREO enclosure to be sealed or possibly switch to Eclipse.
You aren't the only ones saying, "I told you so." I called the shop this morning and told them this is not what I wanted, and I am not happy. They want to try to "tune" it differently and let me have the weekend to listen. I'll let them try, but I can tell you (and them) right now, that it's not going to change what I want.
At this point, I'd rather change the whole damn system. The Clarion HU is nice, but sometimes it's hard to read and use because of the tiny buttons. I'm tempted to get an Eclipse or the Alpine.
If my friend didn't do the installs here, I would not have even considered going to this shop. He's the only reason I trusted his opinion/recommendations and the quality of work.
But they just didn't LISTEN to me when I told them what I wanted and what I thought would sound best.
Now, we have wasted two days, my time, their time, and my money to come to the conclusion that the system is not what I wanted or asked for in the first place.
Why the hell don't they listen to the customer? It's the first rule in customer service/business these days.
Oh yeah, are rear speakers a good idea to help give me some rear fill and a little more "sound" within the car?
AWESOME FEEDBACK!
Thanks.
Okay, I do plan on upgrading the Focals for sure. I was going to go 165KP, but I see that you also recommend 165K2P. So, which should I go for for that MB Quart like sound? I wanted to go with the 165KP because it won't cost me anything to bump up to them, but the 165K2P's would be quite a jump up in price. So, will the 165KP's be okay?
Well, I like the Kicker's power, but I don't like the Kicker's size. I am trying to conserve as much space as possible in my trunk area. I would much rather find two smaller amps and put one in each side of the trunk. Maybe something like a JL 300/2 for mids/highs and a 500/1 for the sub. Sound like an idea? Then it gets me to that magic number of 150x2 for mids highs and 500 on bass. The alternative is like you said. A 4x150 @ 4ohms.
As for the sub, something has to be done about that. I told them I wanted sealed, but they swore the ported would be better. Now, I realize that having a convertible makes it harder to get bass in the car. But, for those of you with sealed 10" subs, are you still getting adequate bass and still getting clean, clear, tight, hard hitting bass? Mine sounds like I have a Bazooka tube in the trunk. It's quite horrible. But it sure does rattle the hell out of things.
This almost makes me want to just get the JL10w6 Stealthbox made for the S2K. Would that be a better option? Otherwise, I could redo the TREO enclosure to be sealed or possibly switch to Eclipse.
You aren't the only ones saying, "I told you so." I called the shop this morning and told them this is not what I wanted, and I am not happy. They want to try to "tune" it differently and let me have the weekend to listen. I'll let them try, but I can tell you (and them) right now, that it's not going to change what I want.
At this point, I'd rather change the whole damn system. The Clarion HU is nice, but sometimes it's hard to read and use because of the tiny buttons. I'm tempted to get an Eclipse or the Alpine.
If my friend didn't do the installs here, I would not have even considered going to this shop. He's the only reason I trusted his opinion/recommendations and the quality of work.
But they just didn't LISTEN to me when I told them what I wanted and what I thought would sound best.
Now, we have wasted two days, my time, their time, and my money to come to the conclusion that the system is not what I wanted or asked for in the first place.
Why the hell don't they listen to the customer? It's the first rule in customer service/business these days.
Oh yeah, are rear speakers a good idea to help give me some rear fill and a little more "sound" within the car?
the 300/2 and 500/1 could be a good solution if you chose to go that route. but again you're talking about almost doubling the power handling for the fronts... so be careful. but then again -- just about any other amp outputing 100 Wrms x 2 for fronts (KP's) and 400-500 Wrms solution for the sub would work. if the JL is hecka more money -- i wouldn't say it is worth it. the Audison SRx 3 (while an oddball amp) also remains a legitimate solution. it is lower in power that your other options, but power wise it isn't way off or anything.
well, if nothing else - these guys are good to work w/ you and based upon your descriptions your friend does good work. and that is of value to you.
As for the sub, something has to be done about that. I told them I wanted sealed, but they swore the ported would be better. ......
Mine sounds like I have a Bazooka tube in the trunk. It's quite horrible. But it sure does rattle the hell out of things.
Mine sounds like I have a Bazooka tube in the trunk. It's quite horrible. But it sure does rattle the hell out of things.
a sealed sub can get you the bass you want into the car... but the sealed sub isn't as efficient as a ported sub.
so, if you had a car that got 40 mpg and a car that got 25 mpg... and wanted to drive the same distance, what is your solution to get there? more gas.
in this case, a sealed sub will require more power (and power handling) to get the same output. but it is entirely possible to get there. and YES you can get a pretty good flat response out of a ported enclosure sub, but it takes no small amount of design effort to do it.
before getting the TREO moved to a sealed enclosure, be sure to check that it can work in a sealed box... not all subs are designed for all applications... some are designed to work sealed only, others ported only, and others free air. some are even useable in all cases.... if you're not sure how to check, let me know.
and why don't they listen to the customer? i dunno. i can make some guesses, but most of them aren't particularly nice...
---------------------------
now, moving on from there....
the one thing that this shop did wrong was not listen to you... either that, or they didn't have the experience and knowledge to know how to properly meet your needs.
i also strongly work to use my local shops b/c i like having the local service. simultaneously though -- if i cannot get what i want from them at an appropriate price, i will go to outside sources to obtain the products i'm interested in.
i recently bought the 8500 X50 to upgrade my 8500. before ordering from SBHCorp like so many here have done (as i did before), i went to my local shop which has just recently started dealing Escort. i gave them the price, they couldn't even come down from MSRP to get close to it... so, i went back to SBHCorp and told my local shop that i did.
give them a chance to make it right, but if these guys continue to show this kind of ignorance -- you need to step in as the knowledgeable customer and have it done your way. if they are truly service bent -- they will work for you.
look - i think you guys know i'm a EJ gearhead in a big way... Nate, do you know how many salesman and installers i've educated in my time?
sheesh, my wife can out talk a lot of stereo sales guys just from hanging out w/ me! it's funny to watch them get own3d too... regarding ZSAK's comments -- here's my hypothesis. why is Nate's front speakers so 'not loud enough'?
because they don't know that the Memphis cannot reproduce the power they think it can... they have them wired for 55 Wrms / side on a coaxial. 55 Wrms isn't that low, but i have my doubts about the capabilities and reality of the Memphis' rating.
"For the time being, he should concentrate on getting the front to 100% If he is still not happy, then rears time. "
Nate:
"Being an 8-volt unit will make a difference as well (compared to the Clarion's 4 volt). NO. it won't make a LICK's difference from the 4V to 8V upgrade. if the system is setup right -- it won't matter. don't waste your money. if you prefer the look and ease of use of the Eclipse -- then those are reasons. the 8 V is no reason. it's like putting a boost gage on a non-boosted car. it does nothing for you.
and did you get a DCI? if so, be sure to consider it before making any deck upgrades. honestly -- the Clarion is a nice looking deck... i do not see it as being the issue.
I agree with you that the 4v on the headunit is not the problem at all. The only thing running a hot 8V eclipse head will do is force you to drop the gains on the amp so you don't overdrive the first stage. It will be completely wasted. That amp is likely expecting a 4V signal and you'll have to set the gains down to simulate a 4V signal.
Man, I hate to see people get jerked like this...
Man, I hate to see people get jerked like this...
regarding the TREO sub .. i'm looking at the 10" SS. wanna know what's really wrong with what i'm seeing? (i do not know how i missed this the other day) they don't list a recommended enclosure!! NONE. they do state, "Optimized for small to medium sealed, vented, infinite baffle, and bandpass enclosures." how can it be optimized for everything? it's either optimized for one or the other...
dude, that just isn't right. a sub's enclosure is almost as important as the sub itself. and how can you pair that off w/o some knowledge of what the sub requires?
which means your installer may have your sub sounding like ass b/c he just got unlucky w/ the enclosure. maybe he can call TREO and get some better recommendations on how to build the enclosure.
and yes -- as i agreed before -- the Eclipse sub cannot work w/ this amp. there's no way you can get one of the Al subs to run at a 1 ohm load. you just can't do it.
and a sealed enclosure IS easier to build.... but a good ported enclosure (w/ tight flat bass) is a 100x's harder! it is do-able, but it is NOT easy by any means. and honestly, i don't think these guys have the technical expertise to design a proper ported enclosure... so God himself only knows what they built you. i can build a ported enclosure that will sound like ass w/o any additional effort from a sealed...
in the end Nate -- i so wish you leaved nearby. i could go w/ you to make sure you got what you wanted. and we'd have you setup and done already. and you'd love it... (or else...
)
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Joined: Jun 2003
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From: New York
They should have a city where only us junkies can live. It would be such a great place to live....
Bass at 3 am, highs cracking champagne flutes in peoples cabinets, and everyone is smiling. Ahhh the possibilities.
Bass at 3 am, highs cracking champagne flutes in peoples cabinets, and everyone is smiling. Ahhh the possibilities.
Thread Starter
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From: Gainesville
You don't know how much I wish that now. And I wish I had just gone to the other shop and done the JL Audio 500/5 and JL Stealthbox. I found out that their sister store carries MB Quart, so I could have done that too. It would have been quick, easy and affordable, and it would have given me the sound I wanted in the first place.
Oh, so that's the problem with the TREO, huh? It's made for every enclosure? I know that it's "optimized" for ported enclosures, thus one reason for their recommendation, but it sure isn't giving me the sound I want.
I'll stick with the Clarion, unless I tell them to take everything out and I go elsewhere. In that case, I'll get the Alpine 9831 as originally stated in this thread.
I'll have to see if they can get the JL stuff. If not, then I might as well get a refund, go to the other store and do the above (JL and MB Quart).
There is a reason why I don't usually go to this store. Now I think I know why.
AWESOME FEEDBACK from everyone. I truly appreciate your help, and even though I'm getting screwed right now since I have something I don't like, I am glad that you have been supportive and have continued to explain to me the reasons for or against something. It has helped inform me, it just sucks that it's been a bit after the fact.
We'll see what they do for me tomorrow. Otherwise, I'm having it taken out and going elsewhere.
Damn, JL is really sounding good to me. I should have caught on to that especially with as many people that use JL in their systems.
Thanks again guys.
I'm enjoying all this added stress I've incurred dealing with the shop.
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From: Tallahassee
A proper enclosure for ANY sub can be derived from it's theile small parameters. Any simple enclosure software program (you can download them for free) will tell you what the proper enclosure size will be ported and unported, and will suggest what the port size and length should be given the desired tuning frequency. A quick call to Treo would have garned their recommendations if the installer wasn't savvy enough to use one of these programs.
I downloaded three of them last year when desgining an enclosure for my SUV... They are damn easy to use, and even tell you what your expected SPL will be. Building it to spec is another matter of course.
Nate, don't let this stuff stess you out man. It's only a damn stereo. Sometimes we get into these discussion and one guy is pushing Eclipse and another JL, and another Alphasonic, and to the uninitiated it all sounds like hens cackling!
You're buddy at the shop recommends something and since he's your bud, you listen to him. We've all been there. Maybe not with car audio, but with computers, or something else. You want to be able to trust your buddy.
Remember when I said wire this damn thing right the first time so you could rip it out... and remember when I said you should install 2 amps, one of them 4 channel so that JUST IN CASE you wanted rear speakers you could do it without re-wiring? And remember when we suggested to you that oyu buy a mono sub with about 500w so that if you decided you wanted to run something else, you wouldn't have to buy a new amp? Well guess what!
The NEXT time you do this (and there will be a next time, like next week) My suggestion is that you wire the thing for 2 amps, and use two amps. Focus on getting the front stage correct, order your S-Pods and get them installed. Then you can worry about the bass. If you are pushing 150x4@4ohms with those Focal or Quart Fronts and matching rears, you'll be able to blow yourself out of the car. Add that JL 500/1 for the sub and you can run damn near anything you want back there. There are LOTS of options for a 150x4 amp for the cabin, so take your choice.
I downloaded three of them last year when desgining an enclosure for my SUV... They are damn easy to use, and even tell you what your expected SPL will be. Building it to spec is another matter of course.
Nate, don't let this stuff stess you out man. It's only a damn stereo. Sometimes we get into these discussion and one guy is pushing Eclipse and another JL, and another Alphasonic, and to the uninitiated it all sounds like hens cackling!
You're buddy at the shop recommends something and since he's your bud, you listen to him. We've all been there. Maybe not with car audio, but with computers, or something else. You want to be able to trust your buddy.Remember when I said wire this damn thing right the first time so you could rip it out... and remember when I said you should install 2 amps, one of them 4 channel so that JUST IN CASE you wanted rear speakers you could do it without re-wiring? And remember when we suggested to you that oyu buy a mono sub with about 500w so that if you decided you wanted to run something else, you wouldn't have to buy a new amp? Well guess what!
The NEXT time you do this (and there will be a next time, like next week) My suggestion is that you wire the thing for 2 amps, and use two amps. Focus on getting the front stage correct, order your S-Pods and get them installed. Then you can worry about the bass. If you are pushing 150x4@4ohms with those Focal or Quart Fronts and matching rears, you'll be able to blow yourself out of the car. Add that JL 500/1 for the sub and you can run damn near anything you want back there. There are LOTS of options for a 150x4 amp for the cabin, so take your choice.
Thread Starter
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From: Gainesville
Aren't S-Pods expensive as all hell?
What 150x4 amp should I choose considering what the local shops carry (Kicker, U.S. Amps, JL Audio, PPI, Audison, MMATS, Memphis)?
I really like the idea of doing the JL 500/5 with the stealthbox. But yes, doing a 150x4 and a separate 500/1 would be great! But of course, this option is more expensive, thus the reason for choosing the 500/5. I don't want to spend anymore than I have, and both shops have already quoted there systems within the same range.
I don't have time to go out of town to have it done, so locally works best for me.
This just sucks. I trust my friend, but I'm disappointed. They swear that I'll be happy and impressed and that if I'm not, they will do what it takes to make me happy. Now that I'm not impressed or happy, it's like pulling teeth to get them to fix it.
Pulling out the whole system is a last resort, and a painful one, but it may come to that.
Nate
What 150x4 amp should I choose considering what the local shops carry (Kicker, U.S. Amps, JL Audio, PPI, Audison, MMATS, Memphis)?
I really like the idea of doing the JL 500/5 with the stealthbox. But yes, doing a 150x4 and a separate 500/1 would be great! But of course, this option is more expensive, thus the reason for choosing the 500/5. I don't want to spend anymore than I have, and both shops have already quoted there systems within the same range.
I don't have time to go out of town to have it done, so locally works best for me.
This just sucks. I trust my friend, but I'm disappointed. They swear that I'll be happy and impressed and that if I'm not, they will do what it takes to make me happy. Now that I'm not impressed or happy, it's like pulling teeth to get them to fix it.
Pulling out the whole system is a last resort, and a painful one, but it may come to that.
Nate