I call Bulls@#$
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From: EstesPark/BocaRaton
OK, Michael -- The best thing to say now is "We'll see." The first paper you linked to is either out or about to come out; the full reference is:
Santelli, R.M., 2006: A new gaseous and combustible form of water. International Journal of Hydrogen Energy, 9, 1113-1128.
This is the only credible, peer-reviewed citation available, insofar as this "Institute for Basic Research" is a private outfit of unknown credentials.
If the scientific community decides this is all it's touted to be, his "discovery" will be tested to death, and if it passes the tests then someone will be getting rich.
But I'm sure not buying into all this until those validation tests are published. HPH
Santelli, R.M., 2006: A new gaseous and combustible form of water. International Journal of Hydrogen Energy, 9, 1113-1128.
This is the only credible, peer-reviewed citation available, insofar as this "Institute for Basic Research" is a private outfit of unknown credentials.
If the scientific community decides this is all it's touted to be, his "discovery" will be tested to death, and if it passes the tests then someone will be getting rich.
But I'm sure not buying into all this until those validation tests are published. HPH
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I agree fully with the "we'll see" statement! This has YEARS if not DECADES of testing and convincing for the scientific community. I guess I wasn't entirely clear with my post, as I am not the best at putting my thoughts together on complex topics. I have just been reading a LOT about this lately and quite frankly, am tired of hearing people claim they know how electrolysis works, when in their claims, does not break the H2O molecule apart. This frustration is only going to make me want to read more, as I like conspiracy theories and enjoy an intelligent debate...
By the way, here is the Curriculum Vitae of IBR's professors...if it's true...
http://www.i-b-r.org/ir00021.htm
By the way, here is the Curriculum Vitae of IBR's professors...if it's true...
http://www.i-b-r.org/ir00021.htm
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
Originally Posted by MSchmegal,Jun 13 2006, 05:53 PM
Ok...(Big breath of Air)...
My name is Michael and I have been researching this topic for the past month. I am by no means an expert in Quantum Mechanics, but I somewhat understand what it is they are talking about.
Shuneycutt...Nice post by the way, as I believe this to be a new technology all in itself...
NFRs2000NYC... If by "heavy water" you mean (H-H)xO...Then I believe you are correct. By this, I mean that the water is not polarized anymore and the two hydrogen atoms are now bonded in a new type of bond Oxygen atom. I'm not really sure what you mean by "radiated water." If you are talking about water that is pulsed with 3000-4000 VDC of electricity at specific frequencies that that is correct. More on this in a second.
PJK3 and ... I'm sorry but you are right and dead wrong. If you do some reading of the links I provide at the bottom of this post, you will find that the process that he is trying to patent has, in fact, been around for much longer than hundreds of years, but not in the way you are thinking. It's called lightning Let me first start off by saying this is NOT electrolysis. I repeat.... THIS IS NOT ELECTROLYSIS. Electrolysis entails using an arcing underwater. This arcing, which you can see from hahnn002's post will form oxygen off the positive terminal and hydrogen off the negative terminal. You two are right up until this point.
From here you must look towards Dr. Santilli's work with Hadronic Mechanics. Dr. Santilli started his work with lightning research and through this research he found that by pulsing VDC underwater, you get some type of gas...NOT H2 or O2. Dr. Santilli has spent his life working towards his theories in Hadronic (of the molecular breakdown of Hadrons) Mechanics. Which explain this phenominon. Hadronic Mechanics states a number of things but basically claims that Quantum Mechanics breaks down when the wave packets of particles are non-linear, non-local, and non-potential. What this means is that Quantum Mechanics needs some revisions, and if you take a look at Einsteins work, you will find that he died a tired man that was working towards proving Quantum Mechanics wrong.
Fast forward to today. Santilli wrote a paper verifying the resulyts of the HHO bond. (refer to the bottom of the page). If you want the cliff notew version. He basically states that this shows that the HHO molecule is a bonded together in a bond we have not seen. He states clearly that he does not believe it to be of the valence type. He calls this new type of bond a magnecule, not a molecule.
The process that he is talking about is pulsing 3000-4000 volts at extremly low current and specific frequencies (i.e. Lightning). If you know a little bit about electrolysis, which most of you claim, you know that it uses...LOW voltages and HIGH current....(Gasp)...Not to mention maintaining the VDC at a stable level. Santilli states that he believes the pulsing of the VDC at high frequencies causes the H20 atom to "depolarize" into HH0, meaning, the two hydrogens are now bonded together along with the Oxygen atom.
If you would like to learn a little more about this "possible" new technology, feel free to read up on these websites. I have placed them in the order of easily comprehensible to...downright absurd.....
High School Chemistry....
Santilli's verification of HHO...
http://hytechapps.com/aquygen/international_journal.pdf
http://www.magnegas.com/
Quantum and Hadronic Mechanics (medium difficulty without a knowledge of Quantum Mechanics)...
http://www.i-b-r.org/docs/EHM-III-TitleC.pdf.zip
http://www.i-b-r.org/Inconsisist-Gravitation.pdf
?????????????????
http://www.i-b-r.org/Hadronic-Mechanics.htm
If you skipped all the stuff above, and take one thing away from this post... Never say Never....
And by the way... As you can probably tell... I am not an English major... Apologize for the gramatical errors...
Michael
My name is Michael and I have been researching this topic for the past month. I am by no means an expert in Quantum Mechanics, but I somewhat understand what it is they are talking about.
Shuneycutt...Nice post by the way, as I believe this to be a new technology all in itself...
NFRs2000NYC... If by "heavy water" you mean (H-H)xO...Then I believe you are correct. By this, I mean that the water is not polarized anymore and the two hydrogen atoms are now bonded in a new type of bond Oxygen atom. I'm not really sure what you mean by "radiated water." If you are talking about water that is pulsed with 3000-4000 VDC of electricity at specific frequencies that that is correct. More on this in a second.
PJK3 and ... I'm sorry but you are right and dead wrong. If you do some reading of the links I provide at the bottom of this post, you will find that the process that he is trying to patent has, in fact, been around for much longer than hundreds of years, but not in the way you are thinking. It's called lightning Let me first start off by saying this is NOT electrolysis. I repeat.... THIS IS NOT ELECTROLYSIS. Electrolysis entails using an arcing underwater. This arcing, which you can see from hahnn002's post will form oxygen off the positive terminal and hydrogen off the negative terminal. You two are right up until this point.
From here you must look towards Dr. Santilli's work with Hadronic Mechanics. Dr. Santilli started his work with lightning research and through this research he found that by pulsing VDC underwater, you get some type of gas...NOT H2 or O2. Dr. Santilli has spent his life working towards his theories in Hadronic (of the molecular breakdown of Hadrons) Mechanics. Which explain this phenominon. Hadronic Mechanics states a number of things but basically claims that Quantum Mechanics breaks down when the wave packets of particles are non-linear, non-local, and non-potential. What this means is that Quantum Mechanics needs some revisions, and if you take a look at Einsteins work, you will find that he died a tired man that was working towards proving Quantum Mechanics wrong.
Fast forward to today. Santilli wrote a paper verifying the resulyts of the HHO bond. (refer to the bottom of the page). If you want the cliff notew version. He basically states that this shows that the HHO molecule is a bonded together in a bond we have not seen. He states clearly that he does not believe it to be of the valence type. He calls this new type of bond a magnecule, not a molecule.
The process that he is talking about is pulsing 3000-4000 volts at extremly low current and specific frequencies (i.e. Lightning). If you know a little bit about electrolysis, which most of you claim, you know that it uses...LOW voltages and HIGH current....(Gasp)...Not to mention maintaining the VDC at a stable level. Santilli states that he believes the pulsing of the VDC at high frequencies causes the H20 atom to "depolarize" into HH0, meaning, the two hydrogens are now bonded together along with the Oxygen atom.
If you would like to learn a little more about this "possible" new technology, feel free to read up on these websites. I have placed them in the order of easily comprehensible to...downright absurd.....
High School Chemistry....
Santilli's verification of HHO...
http://hytechapps.com/aquygen/international_journal.pdf
http://www.magnegas.com/
Quantum and Hadronic Mechanics (medium difficulty without a knowledge of Quantum Mechanics)...
http://www.i-b-r.org/docs/EHM-III-TitleC.pdf.zip
http://www.i-b-r.org/Inconsisist-Gravitation.pdf
?????????????????
http://www.i-b-r.org/Hadronic-Mechanics.htm
If you skipped all the stuff above, and take one thing away from this post... Never say Never....
And by the way... As you can probably tell... I am not an English major... Apologize for the gramatical errors...
Michael
Institute for Basic Research:
Mr R.M. Santilli is the President for this institute? he's also the Editor in Chief? hardly peer review there.
[QUOTE]
MSchmegal
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From: EstesPark/BocaRaton
Originally Posted by PJK3
...a little surfing on the website for the Institute for Basic Research shows it to essentially be the puppet of Santilli. clearly - questionable credentials.
Now, that paper in the International Journal of Hydrogen Energy is in a real, peer reviewed journal (it's one of the huge portfolio of such journals published by Elsevier; I'm associate editor of another one of theirs, Environmental Science and Policy). That paper, and only that paper, motivates my "we'll see" comment.
Here's the first sentence of the abstract from that paper:
"In this paper we present, apparently for the first time, various measurements on a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen called HHO gas produced via a new electrolyzer (international patents pending by Hydrogen Technologies Applications, Inc. of Clearwater, Florida), which mixture is distinctly different than the Brown and other known gases."
Now, last I checked, an electrolyzer does electrolysis, so what's going on here is at most a new spin on that process.
Further, it is not credible in any fashion that this "new" process would produce more energy than it consumes unless there's some kind of nuclear reaction going on, and there's no hint of that anywhere in anything I've run across. (If there were, it would be another version of "cold" -- or at least room temperature -- fusion. Right.)
One thing I didn't see in the paper -- although I may have missed it -- was a convential energy state diagram. Such things are part and parcel of work such as this, and for it to be missing seems questionable.
On the other hand, we're not dealing with molecules here, we're dealing with "magnecules". Good grief.
Like I said, I'm not buying it, but I will suspend my disbelief somewhat pending comment on that journal article. HPH
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Actually, I just bought an S2K that I have been saving for the past few years! I was looking for information on stereo installs, and somehow I found this post. Call it fate or luck, I've been trying to teach myself Quantum Mechanics, so I might be able to understand this. Because, if this is true, it has reprecusions none of us can imagine.
And if you read my last post, you'll find that I didn't post it just to "inform" people or to belittle anyone. I enjoy an intelligent debate. My first post was to indentify correctly what the HHO claims were, which is definetly not electrolysis...
Michael
And if you read my last post, you'll find that I didn't post it just to "inform" people or to belittle anyone. I enjoy an intelligent debate. My first post was to indentify correctly what the HHO claims were, which is definetly not electrolysis...
Michael
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
congrats on the new S. 
i read the first paper or two published by Santilli - and honestly, over 1/2 of his quotations and references were to his own works... imo, seeing something like that implies he is building a house of cards. and all of his stuff is "pending publication", which could easily be interpreted as "still awaiting peer review" - but could just as easily mean "no one will publish my BS"
either or -- based on the 2 articles i read (one you linked, and another on his site) - i'm not impressed.
sorry, you seem a nice guy - so i don't mean to offend.
i read the first paper or two published by Santilli - and honestly, over 1/2 of his quotations and references were to his own works... imo, seeing something like that implies he is building a house of cards. and all of his stuff is "pending publication", which could easily be interpreted as "still awaiting peer review" - but could just as easily mean "no one will publish my BS"
either or -- based on the 2 articles i read (one you linked, and another on his site) - i'm not impressed.
sorry, you seem a nice guy - so i don't mean to offend.
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From: Columbia, MD
I'm not a Quantum Physicist, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night... 
His claims of a new energy source are complete bunk. Except for the real science (which has already been proven by others long before he came along), Santilli is adding exactly zero to the scientific community. People like that should be hamstrung and beaten about the head and neck with al dente noodles.
His claims of a new energy source are complete bunk. Except for the real science (which has already been proven by others long before he came along), Santilli is adding exactly zero to the scientific community. People like that should be hamstrung and beaten about the head and neck with al dente noodles.
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From: EstesPark/BocaRaton
A couple of things have come to mind since I looked up that journal article last night.
First, if this is the new, fundamental chemical physics breakthrough that Santelli claims it to be, why is he publishing in this journal? If you look over the contents, you'll see that most of the papers there are engineering applications of various hydrogen energy technologies, not basic science. Why isn't Santelli publishing in J. Chem. Phys., or Phys. Rev. Letters, or even Science or Nature?
Could it be that he wouldn't survive the far more rigorous peer review that these more prestigious journals require?
Second, it's important to remember that not everything in peer-reviewed journals is the last word (it's often the first word, in fact, that gets changed by rebuttals, etc.). But from the perspective of commercialization, that first word is often all that's needed to establish the sort of credibility to generate quick sales, never mind that it's bogus.
You'll note that these two points are related. He chooses an "easy" journal to get this work published in, it gets out there, he leans on it for credibility (even though it's awaiting verification), and makes lots of sales. He never refers to rebuttals or alternative explanations for the phemomena that he measured, just his own initial interpretation. This isn't science, it's marketing. HPH
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