Endurance Race S2000
11-27-2018, 06:50 PM
#31
Yes, made a jumper harness. The Life ECU is awesome. Worlds better than the ViPec and so many more features than AEM. Simple to program and they've proven reliable in trophy trucks, BTCC, WEC, and TCR cars. You'd have to spend more on a Motec to get the same features.
11-27-2018, 09:03 PM
#32
Yes, made a jumper harness. The Life ECU is awesome. Worlds better than the ViPec and so many more features than AEM. Simple to program and they've proven reliable in trophy trucks, BTCC, WEC, and TCR cars. You'd have to spend more on a Motec to get the same features.
Originally Posted by http://www.mkivsupra.net/vbb/showthread.php?230805-Life-Racing-Syvecs&p=2923067&viewfull=1#post2923067
Hello to all. My name is Mark Colby; I'm the system architect, embedded software engineer and custom silicon designer behind the Life Racing and Syvecs ECUs. It's great to see people using them and getting good results, but that's not really why I'm here! It's been pointed out to me that there is some question over the relationship and relative abilities of the Life Racing and Syvecs products and I've been asked to clear that up. I will try to find time to revist this thread occasionally to answer any questions posted, but my time is extremely pressured currently so please don't take a delayed response as a slight!
I've been at the sharp end of motorsport ECU design since 1995 (before that I was working on avionics and radar amongst other things). I was a founding partner of Life Racing in 2002. The F88 ECU was Life's first product and is still it's core device, having been under constant development since it first ran in 2003, with perhaps 300 firmware releases and numerous hardware improvements and extensions in that time. The principle with the F88 is to strive always for the most accurate control, as required by highly stressed engines such as a high-boost high-compression restricted-intake WRC or Le Mans engines, and low-inertia engines such as Superbikes or rotaries. With a little slaved IO the F88 will happily control a twin-turbo, twin drive-by-wire, multi-point injection V8, with full knock control, traction control and paddle shift control all built in - and it often does
The guys behind Syvecs have been using Life Racing ECUs with great results since the get-go. Pat in particular is the most technically adept guy I have encountered in the general after-market arena. They wanted an ECU that met after-market needs and which could utilise the same ECU core with different OEM connectors. We make the S6 for them for that purpose. They have a generic-connector version and a number of plug-and-play solutions, with more in the pipeline.
To be clear : the S6 has precisely the same core hardware, core software and custom silicon as the highest specification F88. The engine control fundamentals in these ECUs are identical. So are many of the key strategies, such as knock control. Improvements made to one are often also made available in the other, and it is not always one-way traffic; some strategies have appeared in the S6 first. Indeed it is arguable that the S6 boost control strategy is more flexible for after market vehicles currently than the F88's is. There is absolutely no intent that the S6 have inferior control, nor does it. Incidentally the same is true of all the reduced-cost F88 variants (F88R's hold lap records in Irish Superbike and Isle of Man TT victories).
The difference between the ECUs is mainly the number and types of inputs and outputs and a few strategy differences related to that. Which ECU you choose to run is really a matter of which is most suitable for your project. For example if I was running a relatively standard (albeit high powered) Subaru personally it would likely be on S6 not F88 as it is a better fit and the ultimate control would be the same.
Syvecs are well versed in the differences between the ECUs and can supply Syvecs-badged F88s as well as S6s if required, and frankly they have more experience setting up modified road cars (more standard sensor linearisations and base maps ready etc) than I do!
I hope that's helped, and good luck with all your projects!
Mark
11-27-2018, 11:07 PM
#33
from what I heard the Syvecs were very good ECU, but software was hard to use for the usual "tuners". I think the hardest part will be finding a competent tuner who can set it up properly.
What was it like setting up Life ECU from scratch for the S2000? Did they provide a good basemap? If not, how did you figure out all the nitty gritty detail settings like injector timing, offsets, part throttle acceleration fuel etc?
Hows does life ecu handle vtec control? on a upshift for example, does it turn vtec on/off quickly between shifts?
What was it like setting up Life ECU from scratch for the S2000? Did they provide a good basemap? If not, how did you figure out all the nitty gritty detail settings like injector timing, offsets, part throttle acceleration fuel etc?
Hows does life ecu handle vtec control? on a upshift for example, does it turn vtec on/off quickly between shifts?
11-28-2018, 02:09 AM
#34
from what I heard the Syvecs were very good ECU, but software was hard to use for the usual "tuners". I think the hardest part will be finding a competent tuner who can set it up properly.
What was it like setting up Life ECU from scratch for the S2000? Did they provide a good basemap? If not, how did you figure out all the nitty gritty detail settings like injector timing, offsets, part throttle acceleration fuel etc?
Hows does life ecu handle vtec control? on a upshift for example, does it turn vtec on/off quickly between shifts?
What was it like setting up Life ECU from scratch for the S2000? Did they provide a good basemap? If not, how did you figure out all the nitty gritty detail settings like injector timing, offsets, part throttle acceleration fuel etc?
Hows does life ecu handle vtec control? on a upshift for example, does it turn vtec on/off quickly between shifts?
12-03-2018, 03:31 PM
#35
I'll try and answer as many of the questions as I can here. I may have missed some. My brother Paddy and I have been endurance racing our S2000 for five years. Many successes, many heartbreaks.
The car would go 50 minutes at VIR on the stock tank. We'd add about 11 gallons each stop, which means there was about 2 gallons sloshing in the tank that we couldn't pickup with the stock pump/pickup. That was on NT01 tires in COLD weather. We went to a 26 gallon cell for our next race.
These cars and engines are robust. We've had low mileage junkyard engines last over 100 race hours with just an AP2 retainer upgrade. We'll go through them at about 100 hours and check the heads/valve guides, replace the bearings and some cylinder head parts then put them back together. We'll do wheel bearings, hubs and studs around 50 race hours. We use an ACT HD pressure plate, Bosch Motorsport fuel injectors (factory kept clogging and failing, even with 2 or 3 filters), HardRace compliance bushings and Innovative engine and transmission mounts. The rest of the arms, bushings, drivetrain is stock. We use factory calipers, Centric blank rotors, Raybestos ST43 pads. The ST43's will last a full 24h race and still have life left. We mostly run RE71R's. They last between 7-12 hours depending on track and weather. We use a drybreak and IMSA fueling rig when the rules allow (SCCA will let us do anything!). Otherwise it's 5 or 8 gallon Hunsakers with 2.5" hoses. Front rotors, clutch fluid and engine oil gets changed Saturday night if its a double 8-9hr. Trans and diff is before each race. Brake fluid is annual. The only odd failures we've seen have been driveshafts. We've gone through 3 or 4 of them.
Go fast bits are limited to coilovers, front sway bar, wing and a splitter. Don't need much else to put down a good lap time with these cars. We use a LifeRacing ECU and the rest of the car is all Motec electronics - PDM15, V2, VIM, C185
I wouldn't want to run one of these engines without an oil cooler. We also run a trans cooler. We find the trans will start to get grindy when its really hot.
Our tentative schedule for next year:
WRL Road America in May
CER Mosport in July
Champcar VIR 24h in August
Champcar Thompson 12hr September
SCCA Devil in the Dark 12hr October
I'll also be running the car in COM Sports Car Clubs time trial series, either in T60 or SD and I'll probably bring it out to the S2k takeover again.
It would be great to see other S2000's out there next year!
Pete McParland
The car would go 50 minutes at VIR on the stock tank. We'd add about 11 gallons each stop, which means there was about 2 gallons sloshing in the tank that we couldn't pickup with the stock pump/pickup. That was on NT01 tires in COLD weather. We went to a 26 gallon cell for our next race.
These cars and engines are robust. We've had low mileage junkyard engines last over 100 race hours with just an AP2 retainer upgrade. We'll go through them at about 100 hours and check the heads/valve guides, replace the bearings and some cylinder head parts then put them back together. We'll do wheel bearings, hubs and studs around 50 race hours. We use an ACT HD pressure plate, Bosch Motorsport fuel injectors (factory kept clogging and failing, even with 2 or 3 filters), HardRace compliance bushings and Innovative engine and transmission mounts. The rest of the arms, bushings, drivetrain is stock. We use factory calipers, Centric blank rotors, Raybestos ST43 pads. The ST43's will last a full 24h race and still have life left. We mostly run RE71R's. They last between 7-12 hours depending on track and weather. We use a drybreak and IMSA fueling rig when the rules allow (SCCA will let us do anything!). Otherwise it's 5 or 8 gallon Hunsakers with 2.5" hoses. Front rotors, clutch fluid and engine oil gets changed Saturday night if its a double 8-9hr. Trans and diff is before each race. Brake fluid is annual. The only odd failures we've seen have been driveshafts. We've gone through 3 or 4 of them.
Go fast bits are limited to coilovers, front sway bar, wing and a splitter. Don't need much else to put down a good lap time with these cars. We use a LifeRacing ECU and the rest of the car is all Motec electronics - PDM15, V2, VIM, C185
I wouldn't want to run one of these engines without an oil cooler. We also run a trans cooler. We find the trans will start to get grindy when its really hot.
Our tentative schedule for next year:
WRL Road America in May
CER Mosport in July
Champcar VIR 24h in August
Champcar Thompson 12hr September
SCCA Devil in the Dark 12hr October
I'll also be running the car in COM Sports Car Clubs time trial series, either in T60 or SD and I'll probably bring it out to the S2k takeover again.
It would be great to see other S2000's out there next year!
Pete McParland
This is some good info!
I am going to try and do some of the COM SCC HPDEs and Time Trials 2019 season.
Hope to get my transmission in the next few months, will be contacting you when I get it.
12-08-2018, 06:24 AM
#36
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We get way more than that! 180 easy. It rained at The Devil one year and we went 3.5hrs before coming in for fuel and changing drivers. Mike Fries was in the car and I’m not sure he was happy!
There are a few other things that help our fuel economy. It improved when we swapped from a Vipec and the stock injectors to the LifeRacing ECU and the Bosch injectors. We now have onboard lambda which is a big help.
How close can you get to 2 hours with the capacity restriction (like WRL)?
Without UT looking at the rules, I assume WRL’s limit would be about 15 (or so gallons).
Thanks.
12-08-2018, 08:12 AM
#37
Syvecs is designed for modified street cars. The LifeECU's are the motorsport version. Syvecs is supplied by the parent company lifeecu. The syvecs guys develop tweaked firmware and software for street cars and some OEM integration. The lifeECU isn't bogged down with the street car stuff in the software, just race fault modes, pit limiters, engine and drivetime hour meters, on load hour meters, over rev counters, oil pressure dip counters. An engineer/calibrator can download the log file and also the "tell tales" in a very easy to understand format. It's great for planning the drivetrain interval changes. It takes the guesswork out of when to change engines etc. Our dash does this very well too, but if we didn't have a powerful dash logger say like an AIM dash, this would be super valuable.
There are enough inputs to run a 4 cyl NA engine on their most modest ecu -F88L There is onboard lambda with a very nice NTK sensor with a designated 0 volt pin for reliable readings.
from what I heard the Syvecs were very good ECU, but software was hard to use for the usual "tuners". I think the hardest part will be finding a competent tuner who can set it up properly.
What was it like setting up Life ECU from scratch for the S2000? Did they provide a good basemap? If not, how did you figure out all the nitty gritty detail settings like injector timing, offsets, part throttle acceleration fuel etc?
Hows does life ecu handle vtec control? on a upshift for example, does it turn vtec on/off quickly between shifts?
What was it like setting up Life ECU from scratch for the S2000? Did they provide a good basemap? If not, how did you figure out all the nitty gritty detail settings like injector timing, offsets, part throttle acceleration fuel etc?
Hows does life ecu handle vtec control? on a upshift for example, does it turn vtec on/off quickly between shifts?
Hope that helps.
Paddy McParland
12-08-2018, 08:30 AM
#38
***Paddy tree'd me!
We use the Life F88RL, which is the most basic of basic Life box. It has controls that go beyond what a lot of other advanced ECUs have for options. It has 12 inputs which is more than we need. TPS, cam, crank, coolant temp, air temp, MAP is all that's needed to run the engine, which leaves 6 spares that can be used for coolant pressure, oil temp and pressure, fuel temp and pressure. It has 8 injector/PWM outputs, and when using one for VTEC and another for the IAC, that leaves 2 spare PWMs. Never considered Syvecs since my tuner doesn't sell them. I've had a long relationship with Franz Diebold in Maryland. He's been tuning our cars since Paddy had his WRX back in '04. He was a huge help when we ditched the Hydra and went to an Autronic in the STi in '07ish.
We use a Motec VIM expansion box and have inputs on the C185 and PDM that all can send info over CAN to the ECU. Total number of inputs with the hardware in the car is 78. Certainly not lacking!
There were two small issues we had to overcome with the initial setup of the ECU. All outputs pull to ground and VTEC needs a 12v output, so we wired in a solid state relay to control VTEC. VTEC mapping is simply >5200rpm=ON. The OEM cam trigger is funky. It was easier to grind off two teeth on the trigger wheel than sort the trigger pattern in the software. It was a few hours in our workshop to get it setup and running. Next day we towed it to the dyno and Franz had it making good power and running smoothly.
We haven't run WRL yet. We're not sure what they're going to do about us. They don't require us to displaced down to the limit. Sticker on the windshield disclosing capacity is about it then game it as best we can. 13.2 gallons is factory spec. So 15.2 is the limit with the 15% fudge factor. Lots of discussion going on in their FB group right now. Hopefully something changes with this rules discussion so all teams are allowed the same capacity.
We use the Life F88RL, which is the most basic of basic Life box. It has controls that go beyond what a lot of other advanced ECUs have for options. It has 12 inputs which is more than we need. TPS, cam, crank, coolant temp, air temp, MAP is all that's needed to run the engine, which leaves 6 spares that can be used for coolant pressure, oil temp and pressure, fuel temp and pressure. It has 8 injector/PWM outputs, and when using one for VTEC and another for the IAC, that leaves 2 spare PWMs. Never considered Syvecs since my tuner doesn't sell them. I've had a long relationship with Franz Diebold in Maryland. He's been tuning our cars since Paddy had his WRX back in '04. He was a huge help when we ditched the Hydra and went to an Autronic in the STi in '07ish.
We use a Motec VIM expansion box and have inputs on the C185 and PDM that all can send info over CAN to the ECU. Total number of inputs with the hardware in the car is 78. Certainly not lacking!
There were two small issues we had to overcome with the initial setup of the ECU. All outputs pull to ground and VTEC needs a 12v output, so we wired in a solid state relay to control VTEC. VTEC mapping is simply >5200rpm=ON. The OEM cam trigger is funky. It was easier to grind off two teeth on the trigger wheel than sort the trigger pattern in the software. It was a few hours in our workshop to get it setup and running. Next day we towed it to the dyno and Franz had it making good power and running smoothly.
We haven't run WRL yet. We're not sure what they're going to do about us. They don't require us to displaced down to the limit. Sticker on the windshield disclosing capacity is about it then game it as best we can. 13.2 gallons is factory spec. So 15.2 is the limit with the 15% fudge factor. Lots of discussion going on in their FB group right now. Hopefully something changes with this rules discussion so all teams are allowed the same capacity.
12-08-2018, 01:20 PM
#39
There's a couple WRL guys running to. Maybe they'll chime in. I've bounced a few things off Chris Coffey at one point in time. He runs in the south where the ambient temps are higher.
For the guys who are concerned about using the OEM calipers, rotors, and no ducts we too some brake temp measurements at the VIR24 which would probably be interesting to you. I'll have to dig up the photos of the brake temp paint on the pads and rotors.
-Paddy
For the guys who are concerned about using the OEM calipers, rotors, and no ducts we too some brake temp measurements at the VIR24 which would probably be interesting to you. I'll have to dig up the photos of the brake temp paint on the pads and rotors.
-Paddy
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