Speedventures classing input thread - #72
02-12-2003, 06:31 PM
#21
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Originally posted by desert tortoise
This post is here just to be goofy so I can say that I set the record with four posts in a row without anyone responding.
dt
This post is here just to be goofy so I can say that I set the record with four posts in a row without anyone responding.
dt
how many points are my underpanels worth? They don't do anything, I swear.
I like the idea of classing cars according to tires, since it ultimately comes down to how much grip one has, but what about tire sizing? would a 275 victoracer be equivalent to a 245 hoosier?
-ardy
02-12-2003, 06:48 PM
#22
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The importance of controlling tires is that they are such a huge variable.
Let's say that you have a stock class running S02's, Mod class running RA1's and Hoosiers/Slicks in the unlimited, now you've just narrowed the gaps down to where they need to be. From there, you can decide what else to run. All the other stuff like wings, suspension, etc. will make much less of an impact when compared to the tires and some "fine" adjustments can always be made to make sure everything doesn't get out of hand.
Tires are a foundation, though and it will also decide on how the rest of the car will develop. For instance, if I decide to run in the "stock" class, then I will work everything around the tires and it wouldn't make sense to spend $8000.00 on suspension and brakes because $3000.00 package on the same tires will work just as well. If the tires are set, all of the other costs will work themselves out.
If you look at any kind of racing, you will see that they have some sort of a controlling factor. Since most of us are not gonna go inside the engine and make some monster motor, we don't need a rule that says: engine block has to be stock or something like that. Most of our (I said most...) engines are pretty much stock, aside from external mods. So we don't need a controlling issue on that. Our cars aren't exactly "aerofoil" cars that produce a crapload of downforce, so aerodynamics aren't really a huge issue at the moment (although they could be very soon
).
Since power and downforce aren't the biggest factors, we should control grip and have a point system for everything else.
Let's say that you have a stock class running S02's, Mod class running RA1's and Hoosiers/Slicks in the unlimited, now you've just narrowed the gaps down to where they need to be. From there, you can decide what else to run. All the other stuff like wings, suspension, etc. will make much less of an impact when compared to the tires and some "fine" adjustments can always be made to make sure everything doesn't get out of hand.
Tires are a foundation, though and it will also decide on how the rest of the car will develop. For instance, if I decide to run in the "stock" class, then I will work everything around the tires and it wouldn't make sense to spend $8000.00 on suspension and brakes because $3000.00 package on the same tires will work just as well. If the tires are set, all of the other costs will work themselves out.
If you look at any kind of racing, you will see that they have some sort of a controlling factor. Since most of us are not gonna go inside the engine and make some monster motor, we don't need a rule that says: engine block has to be stock or something like that. Most of our (I said most...) engines are pretty much stock, aside from external mods. So we don't need a controlling issue on that. Our cars aren't exactly "aerofoil" cars that produce a crapload of downforce, so aerodynamics aren't really a huge issue at the moment (although they could be very soon
). Since power and downforce aren't the biggest factors, we should control grip and have a point system for everything else.
02-12-2003, 06:59 PM
#23
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Ok, some good thoughts... keep 'em coming.
I agree with most of what you are saying DT - I need some more time to respond specifically, but I will say that I think you guys are overcompensating on the tires. Hoosiers are not *proven* to be 2 seconds faster on a track than Kumhos. If anyone wants to do a back-to-back comparison to find out, that would be the best way.
For Hoosiers to be worth more than coilovers is just ridiculous, IMO. You guys are putting way to much stock in tire grip in being a determining factor. I would put the Kumho about .5 behind the Hoosier and the Toyo about another .5 behind that. Nothing to write home about with respect to time differential. Until there is some concrete proof that Hoosiers are so much better, I don't see why they are being banished. Again, I was within one tenth between 225/225x16Kumhos and 225/245x17 Hoosiers... I just don't see tires as the big issue y'all do.
Next, I just generally don't agree with a points system... you can never accurately assign the point values. If you want to stick with a points system, the values should be adjusted as a whole.
**And I'll say this much again** The points system allows for too many dissimilar approaches, which leads to excuse forming. "If I'd only had Hoosiers" or "Jason R won because of his wing." Who is to say that Jason still wouldn't have won with the spec tire? If the mods are more closesly done on all the cars, when someone wins they win... there's none of this "if I had only had what he had" flying around after the event.
I think that Jason's wing helps, but also that Jason is becoming a really accomplished driver on the track. So how can we draw any conclusions about point-values when people's driving abilities are a moving target. You have two moving targets... different combinations of point values and different driver ability levels. Combine the two sets of variables and there is allot of uncertainty. That uncertaintly leads to a lack of respect for the winning driver (from what I've seen posted here) because everyone assigns that victory to their mods.
I guess what I'm saying is that something should be done to level the playing field a little. Most people seem to be heading toward coilovers, so why not just make it a hard-and-fast list of mods.
And again, if not I think the points values are off. I'll do some number crunching and see what I can come up with for a proposed points value reorg. Anyone else who wants to see any points values changed, post your opinions. Again, the more information that SV sees the better the end ruleset is going to be!
I agree with most of what you are saying DT - I need some more time to respond specifically, but I will say that I think you guys are overcompensating on the tires. Hoosiers are not *proven* to be 2 seconds faster on a track than Kumhos. If anyone wants to do a back-to-back comparison to find out, that would be the best way.
For Hoosiers to be worth more than coilovers is just ridiculous, IMO. You guys are putting way to much stock in tire grip in being a determining factor. I would put the Kumho about .5 behind the Hoosier and the Toyo about another .5 behind that. Nothing to write home about with respect to time differential. Until there is some concrete proof that Hoosiers are so much better, I don't see why they are being banished. Again, I was within one tenth between 225/225x16Kumhos and 225/245x17 Hoosiers... I just don't see tires as the big issue y'all do.
Next, I just generally don't agree with a points system... you can never accurately assign the point values. If you want to stick with a points system, the values should be adjusted as a whole.
**And I'll say this much again** The points system allows for too many dissimilar approaches, which leads to excuse forming. "If I'd only had Hoosiers" or "Jason R won because of his wing." Who is to say that Jason still wouldn't have won with the spec tire? If the mods are more closesly done on all the cars, when someone wins they win... there's none of this "if I had only had what he had" flying around after the event.
I think that Jason's wing helps, but also that Jason is becoming a really accomplished driver on the track. So how can we draw any conclusions about point-values when people's driving abilities are a moving target. You have two moving targets... different combinations of point values and different driver ability levels. Combine the two sets of variables and there is allot of uncertainty. That uncertaintly leads to a lack of respect for the winning driver (from what I've seen posted here) because everyone assigns that victory to their mods.
I guess what I'm saying is that something should be done to level the playing field a little. Most people seem to be heading toward coilovers, so why not just make it a hard-and-fast list of mods.
And again, if not I think the points values are off. I'll do some number crunching and see what I can come up with for a proposed points value reorg. Anyone else who wants to see any points values changed, post your opinions. Again, the more information that SV sees the better the end ruleset is going to be!
02-12-2003, 07:05 PM
#24
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I can live with Aaron's proposal(s), which I think is:
Three classes for Newbies, and three classes for "experienced" drivers.
Hoosiers and slicks move to Unlimited. (much better than being "banned")
JZR's wing is still legal.
We need to keep it easy. Everyone is kinda familar with the points total already, so let's roll with it.
Just my opinion,
-Doug
Three classes for Newbies, and three classes for "experienced" drivers.
Hoosiers and slicks move to Unlimited. (much better than being "banned")
JZR's wing is still legal.
We need to keep it easy. Everyone is kinda familar with the points total already, so let's roll with it.
Just my opinion,
-Doug
02-12-2003, 08:05 PM
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Guess it's about my turn to chime in...
I don't think Hoosiers are so much faster than RA1s, or at least Kumhos, to warrant an outright ban. Keep in mind too that with worn-out stock suspension I am not maximizing what they have to offer - with coilovers I'd have much better camber settings/tire patch control and extract a lot more out of the tires. Bumping Hoosiers to say, 130, makes it impossible to do both, and you're nuts if you think Hoosiers+stock suspension is any better than (good) coilovers+Kumhos. Sure they're more responsive, and the autocrossers you sampled Aaron heat up much more quickly, but with a top driver the difference gets smaller and smaller. Just ask James Gunn Wilkinson or Gary Thomason, both National Champions who won on Kumhos.
If you want to ban A3S03's that's fine, but remember the disadvantage that a person using them only gets 1-2 sessions in the day where it's cool enough for them to be useful. In the summer maybe only one. For the record my rears corded in their 9th track session, and I'm not one to slide or otherwise abuse tires.
I'm not going to get coilovers for my car until it becomes uncompetitive in stock-class autocross, so Hoosiers are a way for me to be competitive without messing up that up. Or maybe just take off that big air brake and beat you on Kumhos?
I know people are prepping for OTC, but some points must be ascribed to those with gutted interiors in case Rylan "lags" on putting his car back together afterwards. 75 lbs. makes a big difference in this car.
I agree wholeheartedly with your first post Aaron, with the exception of banning Hoosiers. It's going to be at least a few years before the community is ready for a real Spec S2000 series. Got a lot more thoughts on the subject, but it's almost time to grab some beers and watch Bachelorette with my hot new neighbor... to conclude with some parting wing thoughts:
The $5k per wing was what I would have to charge to make a living building them. First order for parts was placed just before Xmas 2002, and the wing itself was built in the evenings and weekends while working a 50-60 hr/wk job, done just in time for 1/30 Laguna. Got most all the wing ingredients through McMaster-Carr, who I highly recommend; below is a complete listing of everything I used. Some of this stuff ended up not being needed, while others are part of the next phase of the project that no one has seen yet. The switch and wire were Radio Shack stuff, ~$15, and I used some old particle board for the wing's ribs. Also paid $150 for the extra trunklid, and $150 for a dual-element ricer wing. Haven't bothered adding it all up yet; hopefully it's less than the $1200 one would pay for the Mugen wing.
Qty | Part Number/Description | Price | Shipping Info
+-------+-----------------------------------+---------------+--------------+
1 EA 6530K61 - Electromechanical $397.39 EA in the morning
Actuator 12VDC Motor W/Limit
Switches, 500# Force, 3" Stroke
1 EA 6071K19 - Forged Threaded Steel $13.33 EA in the morning
Clevis 1/2"-20 Shank Thread
Size, 3" Long, 1-5/32" B Dim
1 PK 92390A932 - 18-8 Stainless Steel $4.72 PK in the morning
Clevis Pin W/Hairpin Cotter Pin,
1/2" Dia, 2-1/4" L
3 EA 6516K36 - Right-Hand Threaded $8.97 EA in the morning
Connecting Rod 24" Overall
Length, 1/2"-20 Threaded Male
Ends
2 EA 8974K33 - Alloy 6061 Aluminum $9.19 EA in the morning
Rod 1/2" Diameter X 6' Length
1 EA 8973K13 - Alloy 3003 Aluminum $51.50 EA in the morning
Sheet .032" Thick, 36" X 96"
5 EA 6072K213 - Zinc-Plated Steel $8.05 EA in the morning
Ball Joint Rod End 1/2"-20 Right
Hand Female Shank, 6700 lb Load
Cap
16 EA 6391K214 - SAE 841 Unmounted $0.43 EA in the morning
Plain Bronze Sleeve Bearing For
1/2" Shaft Dia, 5/8" OD, 3/4" Lg
2 EA 88685K18 - Alloy 1100 Aluminum $23.31 EA in the morning
Sheet .063" Thick, 24" X 24"
1 EA 3125K146 - Push/Pull Control $98.58 EA 10 days
Cable Threaded, 5/16"-24 Ends,
180" O'all Lg, 2" Max Stroke
1 PK 94805A224 - Type 316 Stainless $5.30 PK in the morning
Steel Hex Thin (Jam) Nut 1/2"-20
Screw Size, 3/4" WD, 5/16" HT
1 PK 90715A140 - Type 316 SS Hex $4.58 PK in the morning
Nylon-Insert Locknut 5/16"-24
Screw Size, 1/2" WD, 11/32" HT
1 EA 88805K42 - Alloy 6063 Aluminum $7.34 EA in the morning
90 Degree Angle 1/8" Thick, 1/2"
X 1/2" Legs, 8' Random Length
1 EA 6516K36 - Right-Hand Threaded $10.31 EA in the morning
Connecting Rod 24" Overall
Length, 1/2"-20 Threaded Male
Ends
1 EA 6516K33 - Right-Hand Threaded $5.66 EA in the morning
Connecting Rod 6" Overall
Length, 1/2"-20 Threaded Male
Ends
1 PK 98903A311 - Flat Undercut Head $9.61 PK today
Phillips Sheet Metal Screw 18-8
SS, No 10 Size, 3/4" Length
2 EA 6072K213 - Zinc-Plated Steel $8.05 EA today
Ball Joint Rod End 1/2"-20 Right
Hand Female Shank, 6700 lb Load
Cap
1 EA 98848A033 - 18-8 Stainless Steel $9.31 EA today
Threaded Rod 1/2"-20 Thread, 3'
Length
I don't think Hoosiers are so much faster than RA1s, or at least Kumhos, to warrant an outright ban. Keep in mind too that with worn-out stock suspension I am not maximizing what they have to offer - with coilovers I'd have much better camber settings/tire patch control and extract a lot more out of the tires. Bumping Hoosiers to say, 130, makes it impossible to do both, and you're nuts if you think Hoosiers+stock suspension is any better than (good) coilovers+Kumhos. Sure they're more responsive, and the autocrossers you sampled Aaron heat up much more quickly, but with a top driver the difference gets smaller and smaller. Just ask James Gunn Wilkinson or Gary Thomason, both National Champions who won on Kumhos.
If you want to ban A3S03's that's fine, but remember the disadvantage that a person using them only gets 1-2 sessions in the day where it's cool enough for them to be useful. In the summer maybe only one. For the record my rears corded in their 9th track session, and I'm not one to slide or otherwise abuse tires.
I'm not going to get coilovers for my car until it becomes uncompetitive in stock-class autocross, so Hoosiers are a way for me to be competitive without messing up that up. Or maybe just take off that big air brake and beat you on Kumhos?
I know people are prepping for OTC, but some points must be ascribed to those with gutted interiors in case Rylan "lags" on putting his car back together afterwards. 75 lbs. makes a big difference in this car.
I agree wholeheartedly with your first post Aaron, with the exception of banning Hoosiers. It's going to be at least a few years before the community is ready for a real Spec S2000 series. Got a lot more thoughts on the subject, but it's almost time to grab some beers and watch Bachelorette with my hot new neighbor...
to conclude with some parting wing thoughts:The $5k per wing was what I would have to charge to make a living building them. First order for parts was placed just before Xmas 2002, and the wing itself was built in the evenings and weekends while working a 50-60 hr/wk job, done just in time for 1/30 Laguna. Got most all the wing ingredients through McMaster-Carr, who I highly recommend; below is a complete listing of everything I used. Some of this stuff ended up not being needed, while others are part of the next phase of the project that no one has seen yet. The switch and wire were Radio Shack stuff, ~$15, and I used some old particle board for the wing's ribs. Also paid $150 for the extra trunklid, and $150 for a dual-element ricer wing. Haven't bothered adding it all up yet; hopefully it's less than the $1200 one would pay for the Mugen wing.
Qty | Part Number/Description | Price | Shipping Info
+-------+-----------------------------------+---------------+--------------+
1 EA 6530K61 - Electromechanical $397.39 EA in the morning
Actuator 12VDC Motor W/Limit
Switches, 500# Force, 3" Stroke
1 EA 6071K19 - Forged Threaded Steel $13.33 EA in the morning
Clevis 1/2"-20 Shank Thread
Size, 3" Long, 1-5/32" B Dim
1 PK 92390A932 - 18-8 Stainless Steel $4.72 PK in the morning
Clevis Pin W/Hairpin Cotter Pin,
1/2" Dia, 2-1/4" L
3 EA 6516K36 - Right-Hand Threaded $8.97 EA in the morning
Connecting Rod 24" Overall
Length, 1/2"-20 Threaded Male
Ends
2 EA 8974K33 - Alloy 6061 Aluminum $9.19 EA in the morning
Rod 1/2" Diameter X 6' Length
1 EA 8973K13 - Alloy 3003 Aluminum $51.50 EA in the morning
Sheet .032" Thick, 36" X 96"
5 EA 6072K213 - Zinc-Plated Steel $8.05 EA in the morning
Ball Joint Rod End 1/2"-20 Right
Hand Female Shank, 6700 lb Load
Cap
16 EA 6391K214 - SAE 841 Unmounted $0.43 EA in the morning
Plain Bronze Sleeve Bearing For
1/2" Shaft Dia, 5/8" OD, 3/4" Lg
2 EA 88685K18 - Alloy 1100 Aluminum $23.31 EA in the morning
Sheet .063" Thick, 24" X 24"
1 EA 3125K146 - Push/Pull Control $98.58 EA 10 days
Cable Threaded, 5/16"-24 Ends,
180" O'all Lg, 2" Max Stroke
1 PK 94805A224 - Type 316 Stainless $5.30 PK in the morning
Steel Hex Thin (Jam) Nut 1/2"-20
Screw Size, 3/4" WD, 5/16" HT
1 PK 90715A140 - Type 316 SS Hex $4.58 PK in the morning
Nylon-Insert Locknut 5/16"-24
Screw Size, 1/2" WD, 11/32" HT
1 EA 88805K42 - Alloy 6063 Aluminum $7.34 EA in the morning
90 Degree Angle 1/8" Thick, 1/2"
X 1/2" Legs, 8' Random Length
1 EA 6516K36 - Right-Hand Threaded $10.31 EA in the morning
Connecting Rod 24" Overall
Length, 1/2"-20 Threaded Male
Ends
1 EA 6516K33 - Right-Hand Threaded $5.66 EA in the morning
Connecting Rod 6" Overall
Length, 1/2"-20 Threaded Male
Ends
1 PK 98903A311 - Flat Undercut Head $9.61 PK today
Phillips Sheet Metal Screw 18-8
SS, No 10 Size, 3/4" Length
2 EA 6072K213 - Zinc-Plated Steel $8.05 EA today
Ball Joint Rod End 1/2"-20 Right
Hand Female Shank, 6700 lb Load
Cap
1 EA 98848A033 - 18-8 Stainless Steel $9.31 EA today
Threaded Rod 1/2"-20 Thread, 3'
Length
02-12-2003, 08:39 PM
#26
Continuing on Aaron's and Doug's positions, if we move Hoosiers to UL, we will basically have our similar cars in MOD, since for 200 points or less virtually everyone will have a non-Hoosier R-compound tire + coilovers as a base (125 points; 145 if wheels also), and a variety of other likely common, small-effect mods like swaybars, CAI, brakes, flywheel etc. There are no other single big-point or large-effect mods left to do before exceeding 200 points, except the big wing which currently is large-effect/small-point. So Aaron's/Doug's proposal seems good, with only maybe adding more points for a big wing (30-50 as was suggested, or more for huge or controllable ones). This would entail very little change to the current system, affect few people, and JZR would still be able to use his wing in MOD because he would still be under 200 points (as he would have non-Hoosier tire+swaybar (65 points) + wing (50+ points?) = 115+ points total, with room for more). Maybe moving serious aero-mods to UL next year is reasonable as I don't think anyone else will install a wing anything close to Jasons' this year, and Jason is unlikely to add any other major non-removable mods because of his auto-x classing. This isn't perfect but probably reasonable at this stage since, as noted by Aaron, most of us drive our cars as daily's also, so it's not conducive to strict specs like racecars.
02-12-2003, 08:43 PM
#27
In Rylan's defense, he has the Bitterman rollbar which is heavy and many of us don't have, so taking out the windows etc. is probably only bringing his car back to stock weight at best. (Plus Rylan and Aaron are carrying a few more pounds than JZR 
)
)
02-12-2003, 09:49 PM
#28
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Not that it applies to me at all, but I've noticed that y'all haven't seemed to settle on whether points reflect cost, performance or both. Perhaps if you settled that issue, it'd be easy to determine what point values to give various mods...
Just $0.02 from an outside observer who wishes he had the $$$ to play......
Just $0.02 from an outside observer who wishes he had the $$$ to play......
02-12-2003, 10:08 PM
#29
Administrator
yeah at laguna I had run both seats and the stock exhaust.
I completely agree the weight savings makes a big difference, but we need to look at total curb weight w/ driver. I'd rather see a minimum weight than try to do points per lb.
I weight 205. JZR probably weighs what? 160-170? Thats already a big part of the "75 lbs". The seat makes up the rest.
At thill I estimate my weight w/ me & 1/2 tank of gas was 2820-2840.
I completely agree the weight savings makes a big difference, but we need to look at total curb weight w/ driver. I'd rather see a minimum weight than try to do points per lb.
I weight 205. JZR probably weighs what? 160-170? Thats already a big part of the "75 lbs". The seat makes up the rest
.At thill I estimate my weight w/ me & 1/2 tank of gas was 2820-2840.
02-12-2003, 10:25 PM
#30
Former Moderator
This is getting a bit granular for me. Are we going to have scales at every event now? We need to keep this simple. Many of us aren't as concerned about winning the S2000 challenge as we are about improving our driving skills. I'd rather knock a second off my lap times at this event compared to last event than win a trophy or a little cash. Winning at the S2000 challenge is more about bragging rights than anything else IMO, or should be. I'm a little concerned that people are taking the competition more seriously than the other aspects of this series that JZR (I think) mentioned - becoming better drivers and the comraderie that has been fostered by these events. I'm satisfied with the classes as they are. I'm open to uping the points for a wing slightly just so the supposed killer combo doesn't come to be - coilovers, tires, and BAUW but not too concerned if no changes are made.