I agree that using scales is unrealistic. Just saying that if we account for weight removed we also need to account for weight added. Like being a fat ass like me, strike, bitterman, etc

 

I am somewhat with Strike on this, since my intention for going to the track is to improve my diving abilities at the same time aim to compete with the person that is just a bit faster.

I thought 5 classes last year was a bit much with the amount of participants. When it was changed to 4 for this year with the new point system, I thought it was just right and started to make the transition from stock to modified, just like rlaifatt has done. Now that it's down to 3, it kind of takes the excitement of competition out for the slower guys like me, and guys that are not willing to go all out on mods, in the new modified class.

However many classes we end up with, I think we should stick to it and not re-investigate it every time someone finds a way to go a little faster with a new mod, whether it be tires, a wing or weight reduction, instead just find the right amount of points and assign it.

 

I say we should stick w/ 4 classes.

"Pro":
Unlimited - Anything
Mod - Just like current mod class

"Novice":
Novice-R: Anything w/ Race Tires (more than 5% slower than top Mod times)
Novice-S: Anything w/ Street Tires (more than 5% slower than top Mod times)

 

Why does everyone who owns an S2000 have to be so f'ing smart? If we were all a bit more stupider this would be easier.

- slick rick

I agree with this and I think we're moving towards more and more controls.

- saini

remember to factor in the fact that the points include the cost of the mod. I know coilovers can be very very expensive, but they last many seasons. Add up the difference between several seasons on Hoosiers and several on RA-1s. It's far greater. If Hoosiers were half the price of RA-1's they would still be far more expensive to run. If they were 1/6 the price, then we could ascribe points to them that matched the actual advantage they bring to the track.

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COFFEE BREAK, ..... mmmmmm
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- saini

I agree with you completely. But given the type of series we're running I see no other way to increase participation, for the time being. I think we need to keep adjusting the points to be accurate, like we've been doing, but without harming anyone's past efforts to prep their car. If we can "adjust them as a whole" without stepping on anyone's feet, fine. In the future, I'd rather the system worked like what you're suggesting, but do you really think all the guys out on the street are going to re-build their cars for the Challenge. I wish they would. But until the series is at that level I think it's too much to ask.

- saini

I don't take the excuses seriously myself. I think excuse-making comes down to personal style. Hayashi would make excuses if he lost in an F1 car and I were driving a Chrysler LeBaron , or if we were driving the same car. Rylan likes to make excuses because he's trying to be like Hayashi. Then there are the types like Rhoads, Saini, and myself that don't make excuses, we just win. And if we lose, we plan our next attack. Take a look at every pro series, even there there are excuses. I don't think we need to structure the series around excuse-makers; they'll be there no matter what we do. Saini's point here is really another way of saying that the points-based system has too many variables and won't be as fair as an SCCA type classing, to which I refer ya'll to my above comments.

As far as the rest of your comments, Saini, I again agree with you. I think we're just trying to figure out how far to go with spec'ing things out. The balance is between participation and fairness. For the time being I'm happy erring on the side of participation. I don't think anyone is taking anything away from JZR just because of his wing. He's wearing the green jacket for the time being. I drove his car and could never get that thing to turn a 1:45 at Laguna. I don't think we need to protect people from all the smack-talking as much as you think. But we still want people to take this seriously.

Re. Strike's comments: again this is a personal style thing. Take spec miata: some people participate just for fun and to improve their driving skills, but even the best guys are trying to improve their driving skills. But it still has the structure in place to be taken seriously, no matter what each competitor gets out of it. The same is true of SCCA autocrossing. I wouldn't want to relegate the S2000 Challenge to sub-standard levels. So, if you're advocating that people not take SCCA autocrossing, Spec Miata - and every other form of racing the majority of us can ever hope to participate in - seriously, then I would agree with you. But I don't think you're saying that.

Just because some people are taking it seriously doesn't mean everyone else can't take whatever they want from the Challenge. City League Basketball is taken seriously by the participants, that's part of what makes it fun. A pickup game where everyone is cherry picking, not playing defense, throwing up shots from half-court, etc. isn't fun in my book. Having a series that people can take seriously doesn't detract from the comraderie and goal of improving our driving skills.

- JZR

We want autocrossers to come out and play. So, we should structure the MOD points in such a way that they can be competitive. But they might have to make some effort to do things a little differently than they might otherwise do in autocross: like running stock wheels, or running different tires. But if autocrossers want to run Hoosiers, instead of upping the Hoosier points, we could up the coilover points. It's not that I think JZR's current set up is hyper-competitive (I think he's winning 'cause he's the best driver in MOD), it's the Hoosier/coilover/wing combo that is. No one has this (yet). I'm trying to prevent that from happening. JZR isn't a threat because he'd have to swap his springs and swaybar at each event to fit his car into MOD. So before someone invests in Hoosiers, a wing, and coilovers, I think we should make some adjustments, that's all.

JZR is at 100(hoosiers)+20(wheels)+15(swaybar)+25(shocks)+20 (wing) = 180. If we up coilovers from 75 to 81 and Hoosiers from 100 to 120 then JZR can keep his setup (200) and the dreaded Hoosier/coilover combo would be over points (201).

I know saini is going to say that we're further increasing the points discrepancy between hoosiers and coilovers, but remember: cost, cost, cost.

Next year we could change things around again.

I agree with SaintS2k that we've put the financial squeeze on people who can't afford a 200pt. car. The problem goes back to only having one person in the earlier sub-100pt. class in the Western Region. Plus, there's always the stock class, which allows quite a few mods for those who don't want to spend too much money. Also we can have the novice classes too. That would effectively give us 6 classes.

man,.... out of coffee.

 

krazik brings up an interesting point:

if the "Pro" people are never going to run in STOCK, why have it. I'm not sure this is the case, but if it is, we could have two Pro classes (MOD, UNLIMITED), and three Novice classes (STOCK, MOD, UNLIMITED).

I don't agree with his way of having different classing systems for for novice and pro however. I think the novice people will want to see how they stack up to the pro people so the classes should be the same. Plus, his system doesn't account for SC and turbo.

dt

 

Another way of looking at the classing proposal above is that anyone in STOCK would automatically be put in the NOVICE category. If they're such excellent drivers they'll be incentivized to move up to MOD since they'll just be stomping on beginners all day long, which isn't fun for anyone except Strike.

Also, this would increase the awards payout for the Pro classes! (more incentive to move up).

BTW, Strike is the only guy who calls me to complain when I've mis-classed someone and that mis-classing puts strike's position down a notch .

dt

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by desert tortoise
[B]

 

richard,

it's the coilovers/hoosier combo that is uncertain. but i believe it would be pretty unstoppable. if I'm wrong, then perhaps we should only worry about the hoos/coilov./wing combo. But my assumption was it was best to nip this in the bud before we find out. Hoosiers = $$$$$$

Hayashi's been doing everything he can to avoid buying coilovers.

dt

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by desert tortoise
[B] it's the coilovers/hoosier combo that is uncertain.

 

On the subject of Hoosiers, how much more expensive are they, really? For stock rims, a set seems to run about $750, compared to, say, RA1s that are $650-700. Yet dt thinks they're 5-6 times more expensive to run, which implies that they last only 1/5 as long. Is this true? I was under the impression that a set of any of the "spec" tires were pretty much done after 8-10 track days; this would mean Hoosiers will last only 1 weekend?! Can anyone confirm or deny any of this? It seems fairly important if we're to settle on a reasonable points value for Hoosiers.