I did see the pics. I must admit that I didn't notice all the responses before placing my post...hadn't realised that it was confirmed that the tires were S02s.

From what I can see of the pics it looks like there is definitely ice present along with some residual salt stains on the road that look a bit like ice.

I see you live in NJ djohnson. I live in CT and NYC. I had S02s on for the first winter with the car...I can tell you for sure that having Dunlop Sports (winter tire) on makes a hell of a difference...on ice...yes on ice! My weekend home is in a town in CT where the roads don't get cleaned quickly. The car with the S02s, as you know can slide with the slitest icing, esp going up hill. Now with the winter tires on it feels much safer and I can actually drive on roads that incling that have runoff water/ice at a reasonable speed. I could have never done that with the S02s....I would have to slow down to 5 mph and slowly incline....

SNOW Tires do make a difference...and from what I can see of the pics here, there wasn't a lot of ice and the road seems flat...of course I am not saying that I am sure snows would have made a huge difference here, but I am saying that you might want to try snow tires on the S2K before essentially saying that there the same as the summer tires you have on yours.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by djohnston
Maybe some of you haven't bothered to look at all the pictures???

 

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but this is another prime example of why NO teenager should be driving an S2K or any other car like it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame you for driving the S2K. You where only doing what ANY 17 YOA boy would do given the chance. I actually blame your parents for allowing you to purchase the car. I'm sure they would have had to co-sign for you to get it and its THEIR fault that this accident happened. What the hell where they thinking to allow you to get that car!

A 17 YOA Kid is just too inexperienced to drive a car like this. Its like giving a loaded gun to a baby with one in the chamber and the safety off. Telling him that he can play with it but just don't pull the trigger.

I have a 19 YOA daughter. I would NEVER allow her to drive my S2K. Period. End of story. I know how I used to drive my Moms F150 way back when. I could only imagine the damage I could do with an S2K, Hormones raging and with Chics to impress.

I'm just really glad you're ok and nobody got hurt. I hope this is a learning lesson for both you and your parents. It's tough enough out there these days to be a teenager. Lets not make it worse by making bad parenting decisions.

 

It's res ipsa loquitur, and yes, it literally means "the thing speaks for itself." It is used in the law to infer that someone is negligent by the simple fact that an accident happened. It would not, IMO, apply to these facts.

whiteS, the car looks a mess, but I'm glad you made it out OK. At 17, you're still mentally my elder by @ 5 years, so don't sweat the haters...

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Destiny2002
In this scenerio, control is staying upright.

 

Too late!

Seriously, this was not a result of the guy being 17 years old. This was an unfortunate accident that was a result of an unforeseen environmental condition. From what I gather, this accident probably could not have been avoided unless the guy was psychic or familiar with the ice patch already.

You can't use this incident to support an argument that young drivers should not be in an S2000. That's a bunch of crap. Sometimes, accidents happen and there just isn't anything you can do about them. Many times accidents are due to stupidity or inexperience, but there is no evidence to support that is the case here. There was an ice patch on what appeared to be an otherwise dry road.

Believe what you want, but I would support white_S2000 in this case (even though I'm jealous that he has an S2000 at his age, and I was driving a beat-up Nissan Sentra at 17).

 

I don't care whether my S-02's have 20 miles or 20,000 miles, as a general rule, I make it a practice to run at such a speed that I can come close to stopping in the amount of distance that I can see in front of me.

We all know that a used S-02 (nearly bald) will not adhere in adverse conditions, water, ice or slush. I have lived in California most of my life and have driven in snow only 5 or 6 times. I have never drove a car with snow tires, so I would not be able to say "yes, snow tires would have helped in Matts case". Snow tires are designed to be used in adverse conditions, therefore I am inclined to say that a snow tire would perform better than the OEM S-02 in adverse conditions.

If you go around a corner at X amount of speed, then go around another corner at the same speed and have an area of ice and slush staring at you, your basically a passenger at that point. I don't know how fast Matt was going, so I can't properly analyze this scenario, but I would have to say Matt was a victim of circumstance. To contradict what I just said, If Matt would have been going slower, then I think the accident would not have happened.

After reading these posts, I will definitely take heed. It is unfortunate that we have to learn from other peoples misfortunes. I have been fascinated with racing for many, many years. There is a time and place for everything. Many people including myself push the limits every now and then. I tend to be very cautious on public roads, but in contradiction, I push once in a while, in the right place and time. When I do laps at Sears point raceway, it is full tilt boogie, balls to the walls.

These cars are engineered and designed to be pushed, but when somebody goes over the edge, the fun comes to an abrupt halt. It would not make sense to buy one of these things and not push it once in a while. Nobody including me is invincible from the unthinkable. We follow our hearts and do what it is we love to do.

Don't go over the edge and keep it shiny side up

RACER

 

Got to disagree DJohnson, but it is possible not to spin on ice even on the (worn!) S02's. It's not skill, it's knowledge and respect of the conditions that comes with time. I'm in no way inditing the original poster, but if you enter a turn so far under the limit so as not to load up the suspension, and in a manner that allows you to neutralize the steering control the throttle, you CAN get the car through ice. I did it through the same 1 and a half car length patch of Ice on an offramp from the GSP (to 440 for those who may know it) for 2 weeks last winter. VERY hairy, but the car never spun. I can't tell if the road is cambered in the pic, but that could introduce a factor that is undriveable as the rear would just follow the camber regardless of what you do, but for a flat road, neutral throttle and minimal steering can get you through.

EDIT

One thing about pushing the car - you don't often see 8 degree weather in Cali . Not a flame, just a fact . The S02's, probably one of the finest street tires on a summer/spring day in the dry, can have rediculously reduced grip in the above mentioned weather. The funny thing is to find out that the car that can stop with many of the finest sports cars in the world, now is stopping in longer distances than an Explorer on all seasons! But there is still fun to be had - as long as you recognize the limitations and drive within them. My S is my uber cold weather car (if there is no precipitation) because it sits in the garage and I'm too wimpy to get in the other car after it sat all night in sub teen weather. Guess what? It's fun if you pick your spots. But that ramp with the concrete outside wall that I take in the summer at 60, is taken at 45 with added yaw angles and a little opp lock! Try to take it at 60 with my skill level and you'd be reading "another S2K wreck" post.

Alot of people advise to find a parking lot in the rain and practice car control. In the S - with S02's, find any empty area in some really cold weather (that's sub 20 for us NY'ers, and just notice how easy it is to do a FULL burnout - with out dropping the clutch; how easy it is to invoke ABS under hard braking; and how easy that rear comes out with a flick of the wrist. Then keep that in mind when the temps get low and drive under your limit.

My 02.

 

 

I'm sorry but this accident was NOT unforeseen. Not in the slightest. It was bound to happen now or later unless SERIOUS luck is involved (As was the case with me age 15 thru 24 give or take).

The fact is, I don't blame him for crashing his car. I blame his parents for allowing him to purchase a car like the S2K in the first place. No parent in their right mind should ever buy a 16 year old an S2K or any other performance car. Being a cool parent is NOT about getting your kid whatever they wish.

Again, I don't blame him. Had I had an S2K or something like it at his age, I would have done the same or worse. He just made a 17 yoa bad decision. One that was not unforseen. Winter, Ice, Summer Tires, S2K, Curves, Trees 1 foot from the shoulder of the road, narrow road, 17 year old lack of patience to run his car = Drive ending in me hanging upside down! He is just really lucky he didn't T-Bone a tree.

Unforseen? I think not

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bravnik