Damn it. I said I was done, but here I am.

Yeah I know you retracted in a later post, but just to hammer the point home, that statement shows a lack of understanding of the concept of COF . Somewhere in about chapter 2 of your physics book they probably have a picture of a rectangular block sitting on it long end being pulled by a string, and another picture of it sitting on its short end being pulled by the same string. You should probably re-read that page before your exam. You should also realize that if you are in chapter 2 then you still have about 38 chapters left to understand before you actually know something.

Somewhere in the sophmore level course they will probably introduce the idea that the COF varies with tempature for a given material. See "carbon fiber rotors" for a good example of a real life application. Also ponder the question, "What causes brake fade?" The rotor is the same material, the pad is still the same material, yet somehow they don't always work the same as tempature changes... Sorry, I really don't mean to pick on you, but you did leave it out there. After this damn stupid argument is said and done I'm planning on walking away from it completely.

Yeah, I completely agree. I said it once and I'll say it again, the kit with the non-wavy iron rotor looks pretty reasonable for the price to me. I'd shop around first and have comparitively minor issues with the non-wavy rotor kit, but that's not why I'm taking the time to post all this. The "issue" for me at this point is the noncommital-BS responses. If the rotor is "blingy" say it. Its not like the blingy sorts of people aren't going to buy it anyway. JUST SAY IT. "The wave rotor in front is for bling-bling only." and don't bring up freaking circle track cars or dirt track cars in the same "flow". That's all I want and then I'll be happy.

[Sarcasm quote]I love... fast... as.s.[/Sarcasm quote]

Yeah, yeah. Where did I quote you out of context (before this obviously )?

A very wise man once said that a wise man knows what he doesn't know.

I think you know. And I think you know that I know. I also think think you know that I know that you want to sell stuff based on what person X thinks they know, but we both know they don't really know but think they know, but you know that I know that what's going on, but you think you can get person X to think what you want them to think no matter what I think you think you can out clever me being the salesman you think you are... and we both know that bling-bling sells.

What we do here is combine a differential GPS with a INS system. In english we use a Ashtech differential GPS system with a Litton 100G inertial navigation system. The INS has an onboard GPS, but it isn't particularly accuriate (rellatively speaking) even when using the encrypted militery band (other then time), so we just ignore its position data. What it does have is some of the most accuriate gyros in the world ($100k worth) in a package the size of a cinderblock. We take the D-GPS positions then integrate the accelleration vectors (twice of course) from the INS and do a spline to fill the positions in between. We are interested in position (as well as speed and orientation) samples at about 10 kHz intervals and < 1 cm accuriacy with a platform going just under 200 mph for our application. I wrote the software to do all this about a year ago and BTW I bet you a buck you didn't think I would have a clue to what you were talking about when you dropped the "high tech" "D-GPS" on me. Not to mention the "what I do for a living" reference that came up a while ago.

The problem with the D-GPS is that even the brand new extra pimpy ones don't really give you the update rate to really examine what we want to examine in the detail here. I imagine you are not going to be using a 100G INS in your application (what are you using btw?), but the key to getting useful data from the D-GPS is accuriately correlating it with the inertial data. The 1 pps signal is very useful for this if by chance you are developing this in house.

[QUOTE]The real item in this kit that sets it apart , from the other kits is the forged caliper. //snip//

 

Dude give it a rest. If your trying to prove how superior your intellect is here's a hint no one really cares..... So for the love of god give it a a rest!!

 

We share the same feelings.

E=MC2

 

I should live so long to know so much.

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/vbox/index.html

D-GPS

brad

 

ughh... no .. more.. pie.... seriously.

 

Wow, that's a VERY slick system. Color me impressed.

Ours works about the same way but we have two receivers. One is the "rover" which resides in our airplane, the other is the "base station" which is placed on a geological survey point. There is a radio modem connection between the two. We get about a cm, sometime better depending on conditions, but not nearly that update rate (I WISH it did).

 

Interesting topic. Very informative and entertaining.

Just read the thread and wanted to add a couple of things. I track my S2000.

On the rear brakes. I'm on my fourth front OE rotor. I'm still using my original rear rotors and its still in perfect condition. Removing the heat shields has minimal cooling effects. Max temps attained in the rear are the same with or without the heat shields. I don't know how fast the heat is wept away. Seems to be the case with all S2000s. Gregg, an instructor for BSR. Has also gone through several front rotors and still uses the original rears. BTW, Gregg, You 'da Man! 1:29:1XX lap at Summit Point on a stock S2000. I'm a full second behind. The only posting I can remember of someone having problems with rear brakes is Paul Mumford. He posted awhile back that he cooked he rear brakes. He also did a 1:45 at Laguna on a stock S2000. It figures. He posted, that his R4 rear pads turn completely white and has never seen the like. My experience seem to coincide with dwb1's claim of the brake requirements for the rear. Since, I am just a newbie and the S2000 is the only car I know intimately on the track. I would like to ask, do other cars exhibit the same amount of front/rear rotor wear ratios? I'm researching the possibility of adding more rear bias to the S2000.

The S2000s OE brake system is indeed very good out of the box. Honda did a great job. To surpass the performance would be an engineering feat in itself. Replacing pads and fluids is all what is necessary to get you on the track. Removing heat shields and adding ducts will keep you running. However, I am at a stage that my pads are wearing unevenly. Top to bottom, front to back and bending backing plates. Can I assume that this is caused by the flexing of the calipers? mounting brackets? pins? metal fatigue? Probable cause of premature wear? I don't know. Educated me.

Also, I'm using Carbotech XPs these brakes are wonderful. I'm able to modulate better, feel confident going deep into a corner, don't engage ABS, keep it at threshold. Reduced my braking distance markedly. However, I do mash on the pedal harder but shorter. I also noticed that the max temps are actually the same, if not lower than the Hawk Blues. Question, do these brake pads, allow me to exceed the stress ratings of the OE calipers? In terms of pressure applied? Hasty assumption?

No flames please. These are legit questions and I'm taking advantage of this opportunity of some many brake experts at hand. Since, I started going to the track, I've never met a bunch of helpful guys as track hoes. Thanks in advance.

That's better. Moderators... Just delete those two previous posts. Thanks.

 

Hi guys. Been lurking/reading this thread off and on for a while. I'm not new to brake rotor controversy (go here:http://www.altimas.net/forum/showthread.ph...15&pagenumber=1)

I've spent a lot of time on my race car futzing with the brakes, trying to stop my car, not on lap one, but after ~15 laps of continuous abuse. This brake product has me concerned in several areas.

I do not buy the decreased braking distance theory. You know tires stop your car as well as I do. So what's the point? Cooling? You recommend these for the street and not the track. Have you ever had a brake cooling problem driving your car through downtown? I haven't. So what's the point again?

Steel: Bad choice for rotors for the reasons already listed. Yeah I know there's more than one type of steel. I have a Materials Science degree. I can list off differnet types of steel all day long. Unless these rotors cost a few thousand dollars, the steel used for them is nothing special. Might be recycled steel, but I'm mearly speculating here. That would certainly be cost effective vs. cast iron.

Someone is going to take these on track despite your recommendation, I garuntee. This is a brake disaster looking for a place to happen. I cannot see these as something that can take the same abuse as the original pieces, therefore it's a downgrade in performance. Bad, bad idea. Brakes are not something to get creative and artsy with. Leave that for the body kit crowd.

If you perform the tests as someone outlined earlier and your rotors prove superior from a braking standpoint, I'll retract everything here.

Perhaps I'll see some of you on track somewhere.....

 

If anything, you're using less clamping pressure to achieve the same braking torque due to the very high friction coefficient of the XP pads (which I agree are exceptional pads). Or am I misunderstanding what you are asking?

 

We feel that people that are having problems with their rear brakes are actually loosing their front brakes first , then over loading the rears .
The design of the S-2000 chassis gives it great braking characteristics ( plus the large sticky tires) . The front and rear calipers are the same ones used on the civics and accords ( yes they are different sizes and the rotors are different sizes) . We have found that Honda has adjusted the bias in the Acura RSX by decreasing the diameter of the rear rotor. The RSX uses the same caliper and the same size front rotor as the S-2000.
The reason that your pads wear as you discussed is flex in the caliper . The sliding caliper by design , has a lot of flex built in so it can move .
Adding more rear braking makes a car very hard to drive at speed ( if you get to much the rear of the car will want to pass the front when braking in a corner). If you were to add a proportioning valve to the front brakes ( both lines and not screw up ABS ) you could adjust bias front to rear . You can test how your car would drive with more rear bias by installing high coefficient pads in the rear and stock pads in the front , after warming them up you will move bias toward the rear . You will find that rear ABS will start to kick in if you get the rear to high , plus both rear wheels act on the same ABS channel .
The rear solid cast iron rotor does not cool very well . By removing the dust shield , you get more air over the surface , to remove heat by convection and this also allows more heat to be removed by radiation . The one piece rear rotor will also hold heat in the hub area . After so many laps the rotor will heat soak , to a point where the heat going in will equal the ability of the rotor to reject this heat .
We tested two S-2000's at Button Willow ( the cars were not in a totally controlled environment ) We tested one car with the stock rear rotor and one car with our steel ultra light weight rotor . we found that the ultra light rotor ran 200 degrees cooler . We feel that this is mainly caused by two reasons more surface for air to move over ( the design allows air on all four surfaces , except the mounting posts that have stainless steel floating bushings) and no center area to heat soak . We have used stock pads , and many racing pads on this rotor all with the same type of results . davepk the owner of a S-2000 in California , that has our complete kit installed and has between 1000 to 2000 track miles on the Pinnacle System . His cast iron front rotors are just now going to be replaced, but the rear rotors are still fine . This testing is the reason that we have not seen a need for replacing the rear caliper . ( plus you don't have to deal with adding a emergency brake system .) adding weight to the car.

Keep in mind that adding racing rubber to your car will move the bias more forward requiring more braking to be done by the front brakes . ( the weight transfer of the car will pivot over the car's center of gravity , putting more weight on the front tires , giving them more traction.)

You will find that in this entire braking game , reducing the flex in the system and matching components to the car , will give you the best results.

TRULY BETTER BRAKING

brad

Yes some people do take these rotors to the track every day!