Brad, I think even stating "not in a totally controlled environment" is not sufficient to communicate the very questionable usefulness of your rear temp testing at Buttonwillow.

1. The rotors were on two different cars. The car with stock rear rotors was supercharged - meaning it was going significantly faster on the straights. A typical straight will see Dave's car put on 10-15 mph more speed than a stock S2K. If Prolene's car was doing 100 mph, Dave's might be doing 115 mph. If both slowed for a 40 mph corner, the energy differential would be on the order of almost 40% more energy being dissipated by Dave's car. Even if we assume Dave was a better driver and took the corner 5 mph faster than Prolene, the energy differential would be over 30%. Oh, and were the cars running the same pads?

2. The drivers were not the same. Dave was, at the time, a faster driver than Prolene. That means he was likely using his brakes harder - braking with later with closer to 100% braking effort - more energy being dumped in a shorter time period = higher temps. Whatever the specifics of the driver variable, its one more variable, isn't it?

3. Could you remind us how you actually measured temperatures again?

This is not a condemnation of your system, only your claims and methods. Plan your tests carefully and control your conditions. If you can't, then don't make claims you can't support, or at least don't try and buttress them with questionable conclusions from uncontrolled data collection.

And to think I actually stayed out of this thread for almost 100 posts ;-)

UL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dwb1
[B]
We tested two S-2000's at Button Willow ( the cars were not in a totally controlled environment ) We tested one car with the stock rear rotor and one car with our steel ultra light weight rotor . we found that the ultra light rotor ran 200 degrees cooler . We feel that this is mainly caused by two reasons more surface for air to move over ( the design allows air on all four surfaces , except the mounting posts that have stainless steel floating bushings) and no center area to heat soak . We have used

 

We tested three cars at Button Willow Al's , Dave's and Aaron's or Josh's ( the reason that I don't know 100% who the third car was ,is Warren Gilliland " The Brake Man" was doing the tests in California) . Two cars had stock rear rotors and Al's had the ultra light Wave rotor in the rear .We use Tempilaq temperature indicating paint to test rotors , you put stripes of paint on outside edge of the rotors and the color leaves paint when temperature is reached . Dave's and Aaron's cars rear temperatures , were the same . ( we are able to check in 100 degree increments ) .Al's car at the time still had stock rear pads . Both Dave and Al's cars using the Wave rear rotor are using racing pads both front and rear.
Again this test was for our use , just to test our rear rotor under track conditions . We were interested in the rear rotor temperatures , so I could compare to the testing that I did with my car in Ohio at Nelson Ledges race track . When you just test one car and one driver ( mine was running street tires and stock rear rotor , with dust shields ) you aren't sure if the track or how I drive is giving me the readings . Once we added the other three cars and three other drivers into the picture we are pretty sure that our testing and findings are correct . Are they exact , I doubt it . Did I need perfect numbers to tell how the brakes were working , No . But to add , Daves SC'ed S-2000 now runs the rear Wave rotors ,with no problems . The hard part is not doing the testing , it's being able to find cars that can be used for testing under controlled conditions . Most of our testing is for a certain car, under certain conditions , because all the S-2000 are made the same , using this data will be close . I can pretty much say that any one using a stock motor S-2000 on a race track will not have any problems with our kit , WHY? Because of the miles that Dave has put on his car , on the track with the extra HP that you just posted he has . Al uses his car pretty hard and also has had no problems on the track . What does all this mean, the street is not a problem at all , and we are still testing for the limit on the track! ( Dave has not found it)
We realize that it would be great to check each item , as you make a change . Time and money limits this . I also don't think that your post is slamming our kit . We have done more testing of the stock brake system and our kit than anyone that we know of and posting the information as we collect it . We try to post all the facts and use every tool at our disposal to collect as much information as we can. We will be doing more testing this summer at tracks in and near Ohio . I am always looking for volunteers to help supply more information . At this time we have 6 different sets of pads being tested so we will be able to offer more selections , plus be able to tell the customer what they can expect out of them on a S-2000 , both on the street and on the track .
I got involved in all this brake stuff just because I wanted a set of great brakes for my car . The goal is still the same , offer the best braking system for the money . As we add and adjust things for different customers we are gaining a lot of information about limits and problems that we feel will help other owners , with no need to buy any thing from us . As we gather information we post it . When we do tests, like at Button Willow , we don't hide , we are there to answer questions and the owners can see for themselves what the results are, with no smoke and mirrors .

brad

 

Personally, the engineer in me must eliminate all variables. I would have done the test on the same car, same driver, same tires, same brake pads (and obviously at the same track) with both rotors. Say, 10 laps each. Peak temps corrected for ambient temp changes. And using an infrared pyrometer, not paint. That stuff is just not accurate at all. All it's good for is telling you something is hot. Yep, rotors get hot.

That, would be a meaningful test.

 

Madmatt
Don't quit your day job.

Paint is the only way to test max rotor temperatures . Rotors will cool before you get back to the pits . We do have RayngerST80 ProPlus infared thermometer range from -25 to 1400F. The problem with infared is the shiny surface of the rotor makes a poor target , for reading reflected energy and the transmitted energy from the rotor , giving false readings . We use this for hat temperititures , ball joints and other items on the car . The maximum temperature that a rotor will reach is at the end of the longest straight ,on the last full speed lap. Paint will give very reliable results and knowing maximum temperatures within 100 degrees will let you select pads and components to meet different applications.
Also ambient is not a major factor, racing at 75 degrees vs racing at 100 degrees , the only difference is 25 degrees . You would not change pads or rotors for a 25 degree difference .

brad

Ps
Look up
Tempil
So. Plainfield , NJ 07080

 

Thanks for the info guys, keep it coming.

Madd Matt,

I don't want this to turn into an XP thread, but just to be clear. On hard braking corners I find myself braking harder but shorter. Of all the pads that I have tried I found that the Carbotech products suits my braking technique best. I did not have to conciously adapt myself to the characteristics of the pad. The initial bite and the torque curve of both Carbotech pads worked very well for me it was so natural. So instantly I can brake with the best of 'em. Threshold braking from start to end of the braking zone. However, I cannot say if I am actually applying more pedal pressure. I just feel more g's and kinda feel that "oh-my-God" feeling as I approach my braking point. All I have to go on is my pad wear. It is uneven and the backing plates are slightly bent. I forgot to mention that I would do this lap after lap. Going deeper and even deeper into the corner. Until I miss my apex, then back up a bit. Instead of fading the XP actually gets better. Wonderful pad, ain't it!

dwb1,

I suspected that those wear patterns on the pads are indicative of the limitation of the brake calipers. Since, I am only experiencing this for the first time, or maybe the second not realizing the first. I would like to hear from people "who has been there done that" to comment.

On to the bias. I recently observed that an '02 wore through its rear pads before it fronts. The car was running at Watkins Glen. He was using OE pads and was turning in some good laps. He was also running race tires, the new Michelins at that! I have never heard of such an occurence. I must admit that this is all speculation. However, I would like to interject changes to the '02 models may be a possibility. Also, keep in mind the wear patterns of pads/rotors of the S2000. Hence, my question about other car wear patterns on my previous post. Furthermore, at one point I used an XP front/Blues rear combo. The braking control was very comfortable, no rear ABS even on elevation changes. However, the rear rotors turned blued and little fissures erupted on the surface of the rear rotor. The fronts however were perfect. Looking at the front pads, they hardly wore. So, I was expecting to get 4 to 5 more track days. Then I changed to P+ rears. I have no more rear rotors problems but my fronts wore out within 2 track days at the Glen with perfect rears.

While I got you captive. I would like to suggest if you don't mind. We are agreed that the OE system is very good. So, "don't-fix-it-if-its-not-broke." However, due to wear and tear you may need to replace the system. So why not upgrade it? I would like to see a system that is incrementally upgradeable. Rotors and calipers that are interchangeable with the stock system. So this way, we can add parts as we progress on this journey and possibly end up with a state-of-the-art braking system. This way it is affordable and appeals to your sense of utility. I know that there are difficulties to deliver such a product. However, it'll be a no-brainer for most of us track rats. Just my 2 cents. Thanks for all your efforts. I'm sure that your having lots of FUN too.

 

The optical fiber industry isn't doing so hot right now, so I am looking for a new day job. Have any ideas

I would take the temps on pit lane after the last hot lap. Yes they'll be slightly cooler than peak, but they'll both be slightly cooler than peak. And aren't you looking for the difference between the two anyway? So it shouldn't matter as long as the procedure for taking the temps is the same for both. You'll still see the temp difference if one exists.

+/- 100 degrees is reliable to you?

I've never had good luck with the paint. What kind are you using? Perhaps I had a lousy brand.

It is possible that I will be going to work for Carbotech later this summer. Perhaps I'll talk to you on the phone sometime

 

Matt,

Outside of instrumenting some real time thermocouple data (or infrared measurement on the car) paint is usually the best way to get an idea of brake temps (some will use small indicator tapes). Unfortunately, about the best accuracy you can get is 50F increments. That's usually enough to give you a general idea, but it isn't precise enough to draw a lot of serious conclusions.

The reason I am very picky about test setup is that I have run into the same issues myself. I was considering cooling my front brakes and asked a friend to try the method I was looking at on his stock car (didn't have mine available at the time). Cooling system went on his car and he went out and drove it with the cooling system closed. We used waxy paint sticks on the outer edge of the rotor (goes clear when temp is reached). We had it marked to 1000F and he hit about 650F. Implemented teh cooling and let him out again. Temps really didn't change. I rode with him and diescovered that he really didn't brake much (he was a new track driver). He let me do 3 laps and I punched right through the 1000F mark on the front rotors. Unfortunately, I also cooked the cooling system, so we couldn't take it off and try without it (with me driving), nor did we have the paint to measure the temps. End result - useless data.

BTW, BBspoon, I also use carbotech - P+ fr/rr. Love the pads, but the noise and dust is intolerable on the street (use stock pads there). Plenty of brake torque that I can activate ABS if I wanted to. With Motul600 and front ducts I have never had any brake fade or unusual wear - and I'm running race tires as well. Perhaps heat is an issue with your wear pattern? I noticed that the stock pads cooked in a very distinct pattern when run without cooling. Where they ashed would wear away quicker. Also, on front rotors, mine were through about half their useful life (1mm of wear) when I went to Carbotech after 2 track events and 15k street miles. 2 track events and 7k street miles later they were done - but no cracks or grooving - they were just worn down. Pads were about halfway gone.

In the end, I still say that if you want improved braking performance, choose a good pad and fluid and make provisions for forced air cooling on your brakes. Its cheap and easy. All the fastest S2000's I know of (Spoon, Mugen/King, etc.) all run stock sized (or even stock) rotors and brake cooling with good pads/fluid. If you want to reduce rotating mass and unsprung mass, get lightweight wheels first (larger MOI). After that, if you want to go further, try Brad's brakes. That's where their biggest benefit is - IMO.

UL

 

That's what I'm talkin' about. It's fine to tell you roughly what temperature you're running so you can decide on brake pad choice and/or to run ducting. But I sure wouldn't publish an engineering technical report with my primary argument being heat paint.

that's all for me, later.

 

I will first comment on the 02 car at Watkins Glen , your comments really answer what I think the problem is :
OE Pads
Very fast times
Race rubber
The front brakes became overloaded ," BAM" , doesn't take long to ruin rears .

Your experience with the different pads . What you are explaining, seems like the front pads were not bedded , most of your braking was being done by the rear brakes . This is why temperature paint is so useful . If you had paint with you and put it on to test the new pads on the track , you would see front to rear temperatures would be off , you would know you have a pad problem .
Yes Tempil is available in 50 degree increments for all the people that want more information . But if you had put paint on your rotors 400F , 600F and 900F you could have found your problem.
You should use more than one temperature paint when testing , you can than see where and when the temperatures increase . In the first example the rears will probably be running in the 400 to 600 range , as you go over 600 in the rear , you will see the fronts going over 900 to 1000. The front braking will be greatly reduced, inducing more braking to the rear overloading them.

The reason that the design of our kit uses ; different size rotors , and different offset rotor s, is to get components to fit in stock wheel with no spacers or special wheels . ( you don't have to move wheel weights either). Our original idea was like you suggested make the kit available, a piece at a time . When we put wheel data and suspension data into CAD we found that this would not be possible . We choose the 12.19 dia rotor because there are many companies making racing rotors in this size . We wanted to be able to get USA made racing directional rotors for the kit . We also had the option of using a caliper that holds a .480 thick racing pad, but we decided to design system for .625 pads for longer pad life. We make are hats from forged billet ( billet is a piece of aluminum cut from plate or bar stock) aluminum for strength and stability at high temperatures ( forging "like the forged light weight wheels" is stronger that cast or billet parts . The forging process makes the grain in the aluminum follow the part , making it stronger and more stable , just like a piece of wood that is bent, instead of machined ) . I have seen people post that they make their hats from billet 7075 aircraft aluminum ( the strongest made ) That is correct if the aluminum is cold , like up in the thin atmosphere ( aircraft) . But as the material reaches 200F and above this material degrades strength wise , drastically , not a good material for hats!

Every one always wants the whole enchilada , but they want to buy for peanuts . ( impossible).
What do we take out to lower the price , make cheap hats ( we could CNC out of billet " plate ") , don't use directional racing rotors , buy cheaper rotors made off shore , don't thermally treat or plate rotors , buy a $99.00 caliper , leave out residual valves , don't install stainless steel bushings between rotor and hat , don't safety wire each rotor , don't nickel plate all the parts , don't supply high strength aircraft bolts ( use grade 8 with the threads supporting the adapter and caliper), leave custom bent stainless steel drivers side line , out of kit.
I totally agree with your suggestion , and my first goal was to make parts upgradeable, but Honda did not give me the room .

We are working on two other rotors ( just to keep every one on the edge of their keyboards ) one is a wave rotor that has internal vanes , This will be a composite rotor made from two steel plates with fins as you see in the Hurricane web site . ( It will be costly , but it will be light weight ) performance should equal cast iron vented rotor.
The next rotor will be a Hurricane rotor to fit our kit and when we work on the design , we are going to make it so we can turn it down and fit the stock brake system . This rotor will be the most expensive , it will dissipate heat 3 times faster than the cast iron directional rotor it will replace . The steel faces will not heat check like the cast iron rotors and the faces will last much longer from pad wear . If you don't drive like Dave , the Spoon car or the King car , I doubt that you will need a rotor of this ability or cost . (yes this rotor will be lighter than the cast iron rotor it replaces )

We are working on products , that we feel will place us above, what other companies can manufacture . This will make copying them almost impossible .

If you add up the cost to powder coat stock calipers and replace your rotors with two piece imitation racing ones , you are more than half way to installing a kit that does improve your braking capabilities.

brad

good night all

 

MaddMatt,

Nice you to meet you, at the rate I'm going thru these pads we'll be talking a lot.

UL,

Agreed... Great advice. No question about the weight reduction. I for one, am not convinced of the performance of the brake system. Although I would like to think that it will perform as described, and give Brad the benefit of the doubt. Davepk seem to be doing very well with these brakes installed. A big question mark on the rear rotors. Anything that goes against standard convention will be scrutinize and undisputable evidence has to be presented. I am looking forward dwb1's presentation.

Personally, I don't see the big hoopla about the "bling-bling." At best, it looks funky to me. I would never put those rotors on my car, unless it added performance.

With my present setup, my max temps are +/- 900F front and rear. I'm afraid of overcooling the brakes. The pads seem to perform best when hot. But, you'll never know till you try. So maybe I'll try.

dwb1,

Thanks for the input, I'll see if I can get more data. So, what's new 'bout getting the whole enchilada. Hey, we bought the S2000 didn't we!?! Well...?