Front wave rotors
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From: Austin
Here's a statement from none other than Carroll Smith, regarding 'steel' rotors:
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To digress for a moment "steel discs" are a misnomer frequently used by people who should know better. This group includes TV commentators and drivers being interviewed. Except for some motorcycles and karts, all ferrous discs are made from cast iron - an excellent material for the job. While steel has a higher tensile strength, cast iron is many times stronger than disc brake requirements. Its thermal transfer characteristics are significantly better than those of steel so that the heat generated at the interface between pad and disc is efficiently carried through the friction faces to the interior surface of the disc and into the vanes from where the heat is dissipated into the air stream. Cast iron is more dimensionally stable at elevated temperature than steel and is a better heat sink - so let us hear no more talk of "steel" brake discs.
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I'll defer to him on my braking issues.
For the balance of the article, go here:
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped...rotors_myth.htm
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To digress for a moment "steel discs" are a misnomer frequently used by people who should know better. This group includes TV commentators and drivers being interviewed. Except for some motorcycles and karts, all ferrous discs are made from cast iron - an excellent material for the job. While steel has a higher tensile strength, cast iron is many times stronger than disc brake requirements. Its thermal transfer characteristics are significantly better than those of steel so that the heat generated at the interface between pad and disc is efficiently carried through the friction faces to the interior surface of the disc and into the vanes from where the heat is dissipated into the air stream. Cast iron is more dimensionally stable at elevated temperature than steel and is a better heat sink - so let us hear no more talk of "steel" brake discs.
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I'll defer to him on my braking issues.
For the balance of the article, go here:
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped...rotors_myth.htm
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From: Austin
Oh, and reducing the swept area is supposed in increase stopping power? I guess Brembo, Stoptech, Porsche, AP and the myriad of BBK manufacturers, in both the aftermarket and OE, have gotten it wrong all along. 
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From: Ashtabula
I just love these discussions !!!
I own three of Carroll Smiths books and use them for reference all the time . When we were trying to have custom mounting bolts made for our kit by ARP , they consulted Carroll on the strength requirements .
If you read the statement that you posted and looked over this post you will find most of the answers.
1 Steel is stronger than cast iron .
2 Steel has a limited temperature range ( We had to check rear rotor to see if the temperature range was able to handle ultra light rotor )
3 "Its thermal transfer characteristics are significantly better than those of steel so that the heat generated at the interface between pad and disc is efficiently carried through the friction faces to the interior surface of the disc and into the vanes from where the heat is dissipated into the air stream." ( The disc is
I own three of Carroll Smiths books and use them for reference all the time . When we were trying to have custom mounting bolts made for our kit by ARP , they consulted Carroll on the strength requirements .
If you read the statement that you posted and looked over this post you will find most of the answers.
1 Steel is stronger than cast iron .
2 Steel has a limited temperature range ( We had to check rear rotor to see if the temperature range was able to handle ultra light rotor )
3 "Its thermal transfer characteristics are significantly better than those of steel so that the heat generated at the interface between pad and disc is efficiently carried through the friction faces to the interior surface of the disc and into the vanes from where the heat is dissipated into the air stream." ( The disc is
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From: Toronto, Canada
I would encourage anyone NOT interested in this brake system to NOT buy it. Period.
All this talking out of your ass in an effort to prove what a smart guy/guys you are is boring. All of you "experts" know nothing. You make these wild assumption based on a digital picture or two posted on the Internet. You haven't tested the rotors or any part of the system. You don't know what the alloy is they are made from (there IS MORE THAN ONE kind of steel) and you have NO data to backup your claims.
If you think the system is flawed then don't buy it and shut the hell up. I will not tolerate nasty uncivilized behavior. Read the the forum regulations and adhere to them or get out. I am not going to tolerate the bashing of sponsors with solid track records of quality and service based on hearsay and unsubstantiated claims. If you are going to make such statements you sure as hell better have your facts straight and present them ALL.
'nuf said.
All this talking out of your ass in an effort to prove what a smart guy/guys you are is boring. All of you "experts" know nothing. You make these wild assumption based on a digital picture or two posted on the Internet. You haven't tested the rotors or any part of the system. You don't know what the alloy is they are made from (there IS MORE THAN ONE kind of steel) and you have NO data to backup your claims.
If you think the system is flawed then don't buy it and shut the hell up. I will not tolerate nasty uncivilized behavior. Read the the forum regulations and adhere to them or get out. I am not going to tolerate the bashing of sponsors with solid track records of quality and service based on hearsay and unsubstantiated claims. If you are going to make such statements you sure as hell better have your facts straight and present them ALL.
'nuf said.
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From: Timonium
Given all the expert witnesses trying to prove how smart they are, and since I apparently I don't know a damned thing, I've decided to withdraw from this discussion
. It is a bore, like cthree said.
. It is a bore, like cthree said.
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From: Austin
cthree, I never launched a personal attack nor used inappropriate language. Rather, I'd like a better, deeper technical understanding of how the wavy rotor is superior. I have a technical background, am an avid automotive enthusiast, and have quickly been consumed by track (road course) performance. As such, I need better than an explanation that 'it's better' to satisfy my curiosity. Not just for the S2000 crowd, but for track junkies no matter the make/model.
The purpose of my posts is to better understand, and point out statements that are presented as fact yet fly in the face of sound engineering principles. (like the swept area comment representation)
No disrespect intended to anyone. I just call it the way I see it. And, the way I see it is Bling Bling.
Jeff
The purpose of my posts is to better understand, and point out statements that are presented as fact yet fly in the face of sound engineering principles. (like the swept area comment representation)
No disrespect intended to anyone. I just call it the way I see it. And, the way I see it is Bling Bling.
Jeff
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From: Toronto, Canada
Jeff,
You have made 2 statements in this thread:
[QUOTE]
As a person that admires the S2000 for the no-holds-barred, pure sportscar, minimalist approach that Honda took in building it, I shudder at the idea of spending money on it to reduce its effectiveness as an implement of speed. . . whether on a twisty mountain road or a road course. These cars were built to turn fast, brake hard, and rev to the sky, all with consummate driver control. . . this is a mod gone wrong.
OK, maybe you can throw these steel brakeman rotors on a midget dirt track car. Fine. But on an S2000, a car destined for tearing up canyon roads on sticky street tires and the track on R comps, under high traction conditions (unlike a midget car on a dirt track), no way.
You have made 2 statements in this thread:
[QUOTE]
As a person that admires the S2000 for the no-holds-barred, pure sportscar, minimalist approach that Honda took in building it, I shudder at the idea of spending money on it to reduce its effectiveness as an implement of speed. . . whether on a twisty mountain road or a road course. These cars were built to turn fast, brake hard, and rev to the sky, all with consummate driver control. . . this is a mod gone wrong.
OK, maybe you can throw these steel brakeman rotors on a midget dirt track car. Fine. But on an S2000, a car destined for tearing up canyon roads on sticky street tires and the track on R comps, under high traction conditions (unlike a midget car on a dirt track), no way.
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From: Austin
cthree, a couple of things:
My comments fall far short of 'nasty and uncivilized' but I suppose each person has their own barometer.
There's more than one way to skin a cat. Information can be extracted and exchanged w/o asking questions. I would not be here if there weren't claims of improved performance. If they were just called a mod for the avg street cruiser for aesthetics, then I'd have no interest in discussing it. . . but as soon as it's represented to perform better, then, well, my intelligence is insulted.
What I'm sensing to be the real issue is that it's important to protect vendors, those that support this site. I understand the dilemna, as a friend on another forum that I moderate struggles with this issue frequently.
As to my statement about a 'mod gone wrong', it surely is subjective. I'd guess that the vast majority of what you read on these boards is subjective. But prejudicial? Only if I were some sort of recognized authority to whom Rick's customers would defer. However, I am not. Just a guy and a keyboard. When someone comes out with a mod, particularly one known to fly in the face of conventional braking technology, you've got to expect some skepticism.
As I stated above, I admire Rick's passion with mods. Nothing personally against him, just this particular mod to a critical component.
Finally, it was good to see dwb bring up the hurricane rotor. That may be a sound idea. . . a steel, vented rotor with highly engineered cooling fins. I'll look into that idea more.
Jeff
My comments fall far short of 'nasty and uncivilized' but I suppose each person has their own barometer.
There's more than one way to skin a cat. Information can be extracted and exchanged w/o asking questions. I would not be here if there weren't claims of improved performance. If they were just called a mod for the avg street cruiser for aesthetics, then I'd have no interest in discussing it. . . but as soon as it's represented to perform better, then, well, my intelligence is insulted.
What I'm sensing to be the real issue is that it's important to protect vendors, those that support this site. I understand the dilemna, as a friend on another forum that I moderate struggles with this issue frequently.
As to my statement about a 'mod gone wrong', it surely is subjective. I'd guess that the vast majority of what you read on these boards is subjective. But prejudicial? Only if I were some sort of recognized authority to whom Rick's customers would defer. However, I am not. Just a guy and a keyboard. When someone comes out with a mod, particularly one known to fly in the face of conventional braking technology, you've got to expect some skepticism.
As I stated above, I admire Rick's passion with mods. Nothing personally against him, just this particular mod to a critical component.
Finally, it was good to see dwb bring up the hurricane rotor. That may be a sound idea. . . a steel, vented rotor with highly engineered cooling fins. I'll look into that idea more.
Jeff
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: St. Augustine
Good night people. It's a car. It's an opinion if they look good or not. I think they do. It may be a fact if they don't stop as well under certain conditions but as long as the dude is happy and safe for how he drives WHO CARES?!
By the way, this is an S2000 forum not for BMW's. Get that mess out of here and play in your own club.
By the way, this is an S2000 forum not for BMW's. Get that mess out of here and play in your own club.