Yeap lol AP1s are specially tricky. They updated the entire suspension on the AP2s to help prevent such spins. Like I said, get into an Accident Prevention Course or find a big nice lot.. smooth preferably to not cheese grate the tires. And tires are also very important. I had crap tires on my 1st S2K, bought some better tires and I tried to kick the tail out and couldn't. Tires are the most important. Still not comfortable myself driving one in the rain. Lots of people correct too late, or to much. Most of the time not turning that steering wheel quick enough. Ever watch these Japanese drivers, when they drive these S2Ks, they are turning that steering wheel at light speeds to catch and correct before losing it. The stock 16s are a nightmare. Going 17s (AP2v1) with 255s in the back are great. It's a harder to learn these cars than most, but once you mastered it.. its easy stuff.

 

Just did the EXACT same thing with a guard rail a few months back. Scratched the rear bumper, bent my spindle on the right rear and trashed the wheel. Didn't touch the quarter or tail lamp (thank God). Cost me around 1,500 dollars total. Didn't wanna turn it in on to the insurance because of increasing my premium. NO MORE 1/4 or less tread rear tires for me! I'll start replacing them now before they get to the wear bars. And I put 245/40s up front, 255's in the rear, which drastically decreased over steer tendencies and actually created a tiny bit of push in the front, which is a good thing.

 

Horse shit. When cold tires and asphalt 5 minutes into your drive cause a quick hard slip at 50mph, while not expecting it, on a two lane narrow road and then trying to counter steer while putting out a cigarette safely and clearing smoke out of your face (or any similar unprepared situation) can cause ANYONE to slip out of the error margin, skill be damned. Unless you have some magic way of changing spacial dimensions around your car to allow more room to slide/correct/recover, in the right situation you would experience the same thing, maybe worse. All accidents cannot be prevented or escaped, period.

 

I watched a lot of these, and most of them could have better been dealt with by stepping on the gas and letting the car drive itself out of the over steer, instead the driver is letting off and counter steering to the best of his ability, which is a bit slow to react given what he is deciding to do with his feet, its creating a lot of extra drama and slowing him down of course. He would make a horrible drifter, but then again my impression has been that most road course guys would. Helpful to be semi comfortable with that skill set though, if you want to be a more well rounded driver that's able to cope better with driving on the edge and over.

 

Horse shit. When cold tires and asphalt 5 minutes into your drive cause a quick hard slip at 50mph, while not expecting it, on a two lane narrow road and then trying to counter steer while putting out a cigarette safely and clearing smoke out of your face (or any similar unprepared situation) can cause ANYONE to slip out of the error margin, skill be damned. Unless you have some magic way of changing spacial dimensions around your car to allow more room to slide/correct/recover, in the right situation you would experience the same thing, maybe worse. All accidents cannot be prevented or escaped, period.
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You should have let that cigarette burn your lips, because experienced drivers in a car such as this don't get surprised around a corner anymore, because they know the tendencies of this car and pay attention to what they are doing. You anticipate things like this when your on cold Extreme summer tires in the wrong conditions wile turning. You should have been going slower and paying attention to driving the car, instead it drove you.

 

It is, Ive had my mishaps with the car the first couple years of ownership as well, learning its limits and my own. Ive had mine for 9 years now though, and during that time have systematically done things to make the car perform faster and I feel a bit more refined feeling. The car is very rewarding once you get comfortable with it. It takes a wile, but there is definitely some modifications and set up you can do to increase its performance and tailor some of the "unpredictability", but Ive found that most of this is driver inexperience with the car. Not all RWD cars are the same, especially this one, just takes seat time.

 

How many of these spins start with an involuntary(and unnoticed) lift of the right foot?

My first spin at the track happened when the rear came loose and I lifted instinctively ( instant off in a 911.bad in any car).

With training and experience I learned to react with my hands. Ideally the signal goes directly from my ass to my hands when the rear is loose.

If I were at the controls of a diving airplane, being a non Pilot I would instinctively yank back on the controls likeley causing a stall and crash. Trained pilots know better and react correctly.

A little understanding and more experience helps a lot.

 

Sorry gerry, I can't agree with that.

I have raced up to F1 in the old days when they killed you if you got it wrong, & have never experienced so called "lift off oversteer" in a rear wheel drive car. It is a front drive phenomenon.

As I was seeing reference to it so often in forums like this, I started to wonder if I was only an old fogy, getting it wrong. So I discussed it with some young racing drivers, & some not so young. Every one said the same thing, it doesn't happen. If taking a little of your applied lock off doesn't correct the situation, you lift off. This will normally bring the tail back quite quickly. You may take some more lock off, but should only apply opposite lock, after all is lost, & you are approaching sideways.

It is at this time that ABS may kill you, as you want all 4 wheels locked solid. I have avoided a number of other peoples accidents, with this technique, as the car stops in a shorter distance.

What you never do, in a high performance rear drive car, is apply opposite lock, while under power. This is what causes so many snap back spins in the opposite direction, which results in so many dead S2Ks. This snap back spin is much more vicious, & terminal. You only have to see the wheel movement, & the result, in so many videos of S2K smashes. This technique was great in old Mustangs, E type Jags & MGs. These things responded so slowly that you could wind on heaps of opposite lock while waving to that pretty girl on the footpath you were trying to impress, & get away with it, but doesn't expect to do it in quick modern cars today.

So gerry, & others, please find out what it is that you are doing that causes your oversteer, so you can correct your technique, before you get bitten.

 

I'm referring to that instant when you are starting to lose the rear in the middle of a turn ( whether it be too much speed,bad line,bad grip etc)and your reaction is too lift completely and maybe do nothing with the steering wheel. I've been there. It is counter intuitive to stay on the throttle.

I agree (I think) that after the car is past the ppoint of recovery, it's both feet in. Beyond that your experince would far outwiegh mine.

Maybe,Race drivers don't acknowledge this lift phenom because thay naturally never did it or eliminated it very early. After all they are race drivers.

I also know that in any turn, in either my 911 or s2000 that slight lift will increase turn in slightly due to the weight shift to the front tires.

 

It is very easy to make the S2000 handle in a completely neutral manner. No over steer or under steer. Autocrossers have known this for years. You can make your S2000 one of the best handling cars on the planet for very little money. No more snap over steer even in the wet. The key is to replace the way to soft factory front sway bar with a heavy duty competition front sway bar. Then put an autocross wheel alignment on. The rear end is so planted that on my AP2 I am also running 245/40-17's on all 4 corners. Making these changes will totally transform your S2000 into a much better handling car that is faster and easier to drive fast by far. Check out the racing/autocrossing forums.