This happens to me as well.. on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd... it mostly happens when the weather is cool... but not freezing cold... kinda weird... I just hold down the clutch a bit longer and let it come out smoothly b/c it almost only happens when I'm coming to a stop...

I searched the threads a bit and found no definitive fix for this problem yet...

 

I took my car out tonight and did a little informal testing. Keep in mind that my car is 7 years old now, so it is a candidate for the rusty splines problem.

While I was warming the car up thoroughly I shifted the way I normally do, so that the way it felt was fresh in my mind. I always work down through the gears as I stop, stopping completely with the car in first and the clutch in. Then, if I'm going to be stopped for a while (like at a red light rather than a stop sign) I pull the shifter into neutral. During a casual stop I tend to downshit before the engine drops below 3,000 RPM. After some road miles and a half dozen test stops everything was thoroughly warmed up, I tried the following ...

As I came to a stop I downshifted normally until I was in second gear, and then I left the car in second gear until I was almost stopped, and which point I tried to drop it gently into neutral. Well, guess what? When I pushed (gently, always gently) on the shifter, it pushed back. I am almost certain that this is due to the rusty spline problem Billman has addressed, because it felt for all the world as if the clutch disk was still locked to the pressure plate (which is exactly what the rusty splines do). I tried a few more stops, and when I let car slow down too much before downshifting from second to first it hangs almost every time. Since this is something I never see in normal driving I'm not sure that I'm going to worry about it, but apparently my tired old Honda has rusty splines too. Since rust is like cancer the problem is going to get worse rather than going away, so it's just a matter of time before I'll be dropping my trans too.

Oh well, it had to come out for a lighter flywheel and pressure plate sooner or later anyway.

 

man, that doesnt sound good.

 

first off... jonomo, it took me awhile to read your post. i'm so weak around cute korean girls. but yes, holding down the clutch a bit longer does help but then you drop too many rpms for the next gear. i guess i would have to rev match more.

red mx5, so is your trick to downshift before it gets below 3k? any other tricks? in jumpman's thread somebody suggested changing the timing which i sorta have been doing already unconciously but I thought it was always bad to pull the car out of gear before the clutch is fully disengaged? my car only has 48k on it and it the clutch still grabs... seems like a waste to change it but dang for the sanity of me and my car!

jumpman, you are so lucky to live near such a s2k expert! i hope your car gets fixed.

 

This seems like an expensive fix.

 

Let's start with your question about pulling the car out of gear before the clutch is fully disengaged.
Pulling the car out of gear before the clutch is fully engaged is a VERY BAD IDEA, unless you know what you're doing. I don't want to say too much about how it's done, because I don't want people tearing up their transmissions trying to learn the technique, but it's really just a variation of rev matching. As you release the throttle (smoothly, not suddenly) there is a point at which no power is being transmitted, just as if the clutch were depressed, and during that period the car will slip into neutral just as easily as if the clutch were disengaged. However, let's look at what's involved in smooth shifting. This is probably going to be a bit wordy, but I'll keep it as short as I can. Hopefully it will answer all your other questions.

To begin with, there are lots of ways to shift a car, and it's not like my way is the only way, and what we are discussing here is not appropriate for every shift. I'm just describing one way to get smooth shifts on the street, and I don't intend to imply that it is the only way or even the best way. It's just my way.

What I'm after on the street is the smoothest shifts possible. When I depress the clutch I don't want the passenger to be thrown forward, and I don't want to jerk him forward or backward when I release the clutch. If I don't jerk my passengers around on the street I won't be jerking the weight of the car around when I'm on the track. I also want the car to shift smoothly and effortlessly because that's easier on the hardware. Now let me see if I can describe the process itself ...

Let's say that we're accelerating in first gear and want to shift into second. I use a rocking motion as if my two feet were connected by a string that ran across the top of the steering column. As my right foot comes up off the gas pedal, the imaginary string lets my left foot depress the clutch pedal. When I use the term "shift timing," I'm talking about the timing of the two feet working together to disengage the clutch without upsetting the car. To begin with, I am accelerating, and if I just let go of the throttle or jam the clutch pedal to the floor the passenger will be thrown forward, as will the weight of the car. To avoid this the gas pedal has to be treated like a linear control rather than an on/off switch. As the gas pedal is being released the clutch is being depressed, and the acceleration is dropping. The "timing" is what brings it all together. The acceleration sould be at or near zero at the mid-point of the clutch release. This way, the clutch just starts to slip as the driveline unloads and the forward acceleration goes to zero with minimal forward weight shift. Now here's a nice side effect of having the driveline uload at the same time the clutch disengagges. All you have to do is apply light pressure to the shifter, and at the point where the driveline unloads the car will slip out of gear almost on its own, half way through the clutch stroke (right where the clutch is starting to slip). At this point I continue to push *gently* toward second, and as the revs drop the car slips into second as easily as it slipped into neutral. Slightly *before* the car is fully in gear my feet are already at work, letting the clutch back out and applying throttle, and this time the "timing" is a matter of getting the clutch engaged at the point where the engine is spinning at the right speed to pick up the acceleration smoothly. As the clutch engages the throttle goes to the floor (or as far as it needs to go to get the needed acceleration) smoothly, so again, there is minimal weight transfer.

I have to do some more testing with this rusty spline issue; After all, I've only just discovered that I can duplicate the problem. I was going to go out today and try a few things, but it's been cold and rainy and I've been lazy. At this point all I can say is that I normally downshift before the revs drop below 3k, and when I do that, I don't see the problem. Except for blipping the throttle to get a rev match I downshift the same way I upshift (keeping the car balanced and using only light pressure on the shifter).

When you shift you should feel two "notches" or points where the shifter resists a little. This is feedback, not "notchiness." It's feedback, and too much resistance means something is wrong. Might be the timing or something mechanical, but either way, it's not really a good thing.

When you say that your clutch "grabs," do you mean that it grabs when you launch the car?

 

I agree, but since it's rust it's only going to get worse over time. When you rev match and shift quickly (and smoothly) it seems to be a non-issue, but I'll bet it makes rev matching a more critical factor in the life of the transmission. If my car starts "hang shifting" when I shift normally I won't be able to stand it.

I guess it helps that I was already trying to decide between an FSB and a FW/clutch upgrade.

Right now I'm trying to decide whether I want to go ahead and do the clutch or drive the car for a while to see how quickly the problem progresses. I have no idea how long it will be before this becomes an issue I can't drive around.

 

Yeah.. for me. this almost always happens when I'm coming to a stop... never when I'm downshifting.. maybe we dont down shift at the same times...

I'm glad this thread is alive.. i'll check the rusty bits next time i get a clutch job... keep us posted