Originally Posted by tnE30fan

Very well-written post, EGbeater. I gained a lot of insight reading that. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

Originally Posted by EGbeater

I've owned an Evo9 since 2008 and an S2000 since 2013. I've autocrossed and done time trials (road course track racing, but not wheel-to-wheel) in both. My Evo was highly modified for Street Modified class (it won SM at Solo Nationals in 2010) and later for NASA TTU and TT1 class Time Trials. I'm not a very good driver unfortunately, but my Evo was very capable and I managed to set one TT1 track record during my one serious season of competition in NASA Time Trials (should have been two track records, but I DNFed myself during the session where I set a new track record by going four-off after I'd already recorded the record-setting lap... ).

There is no way to justify the statement that the Evo is "a much better performance car" simply for the fact that the Evo has a 61% F/39% R weight balance—which is an Achille's heel that is impossible to rectify without either shifting the engine/tranny/T-case back at least two feet, or adding 700 pounds of ballast weight in the rear seat area.

Here's my Evo's corner balance in 2012, in autocross trim, after taking as much much weight out of the FRONT of it as possible... still horrible:



I haven't built either my Evo or my S2000 for drag racing, but I'll say this: NEITHER was designed for drag racing, and BOTH will break lots of expensive stuff when you up the power and add enough grip to cut good 60-foot times.

Yes, the Evo's AWD drivetrain allows it to cut sub 1.7-second 60-foots, in stock form, on street tires. But since the Evo has AWD, and its OEM axles are strong enough not to break at up to 500whp/wtq, that means you will be exceeding the mechanical limits of the clutch, tranny, T-case, and rear diff by beating on a fast Evo at the drag strip. You can probably figure out where I'm going with this.

The Evo is not really any better than the S2000 in bad weather or snow without appropriate tires. I've gotten my Evo stuck in my driveway on summer tires in about 1/2" of snow, and my driveway is only at about a 6 or 7-degree grade. As should be readily apparent by all the morons who fly off the road in their SUVs, Audis, and Subarus EVERY winter storm, AWD simply allows you to get going better in slippery conditions... it never enables you to stop or turn any better, which is really what matters.

I live in Colorado, and every winter on our local Evo forum, numerous Evo owners post about how stupid they feel about sliding into a curb and bending or breaking a wheel or suspension parts (or worse) because they didn't bother to put snow tires or (even decent all-seasons) on their Evos. If you want a false sense of security during winter driving, sure; believe in the myth of AWD precluding the need for season-appropriate tires.

The Evo is HARDER to drive fast than an S2000 for three important reasons, regardless of how either car is built or modified in terms of their supensions:

• Turbo lag and the non-linear power output of the Evo's engine versus the very linear, easily modulated throttle of the N/A S2000
  
• The slower car (the S2000) allows any driver—but especially noobs and less-talented drivers, like me—to focus on their line and technique, which is ultimately what makes for a fast driver
  
• The S2000 does exactly what you tell it to, due to its near perfect front-to-rear weight balance and excellent suspension geometry. The Evo has to be modded heavily to get it to turn well (due to both its horribly overweight front end and its strut-based front suspension) which makes it unstable
  

Additionally, for autocross, the best technique for driving an Evo fast often involves driving slightly outside the limits of the friction circle to get the car to slide and dance around. The S2000's chassis—because of its innate superiority—requires none of this, and always rewards precision and smoothness. Being precise and smooth is easier to do than grabbing a car by the scruff of its neck and shaking it around, and trying not to let it bite you in the face.

I will say that the Evo has an advantage (for inexperienced drivers) that when the back end gets loose, usually you can recover by simply countersteering and flooring it. This simplistic technique to counter oversteer doesn't work on the S2000—more finesse is required. BUT, most noob drivers will simply freeze up when their car oversteers (or even worse, go for the brake), regardless of whether they're in an Evo or an S2000, and they'll loop it anyway. An experienced driver can easily manage oversteer in any car, regardless of whether it's RWD or AWD.


If you're talking about the fact that (without a roll bar/cage at least) you can put four wheels/tires + tools in an Evo, and that makes it "easier to race than an S2000," okay. Otherwise, it's "easier" to race an S2000 because it's easier on tires... easier on brakes... easier on fuel... all of these are because of its lighter weight and lower power, basically.

And, add in the factor that the S2000 is a more balanced chassis as I explained earlier, and therefore easier to drive at or close to the limit, I think the S2000 overall is EASIER to race than the Evo.

In stock, near-stock, or highly modified form, an S2000 is a better autocross vehicle than an Evo. No contest. Compare the times of BSP-class S2000s versus the Street Mod (SM) cars, and the BS and STR-class S2000s versus STU-class Evos at the highest level of the game—SCCA Solo Nationals in Lincoln, NE.

Note that in the BSP S2000 vs SM Evo comparison, SM class vehicles have basically unlimited power (there are no restrictions that limit HP, just increased minimum weight if you up the displacement of the engine) while BSP S2000s CANNOT run forced induction or motor swaps that would greatly increase the car's HP. Both BSP and SM run on R-comps, or DOT-approved race tires (e.g., Hoosier A6).

Yes, in 2013 the class-winning STU Evo was significantly faster than the top STR S2000s (both STU and STR class vehicle compete on the same types of ultra-high performance street tires like Hankook R-S3, BFG Rival, ADVAN AD08R, and Direzza Z1/Z2). But considering that the S2000s are limited to about 220 whp based on the rules of the class, and STU-class Evos can easily be at 330+ whp/wtq, it's obvious that the S2000 is actually "faster" on the autocross course when you consider the massive HP disadvantage they're at.

Plus, the top six STR-class S2000s were still faster than the second-fastest STU-class Evo!

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...s%20FINAL1.pdf

B Street Prepared (BSP) Drivers: 16 Trophies: 5

T1 80 Robert Thorne 2008 Honda S2k BigBadWolf Hoosier Colorado 55.569(1) 52.937 52.585 123.855
Littleton, CO 3RAuto.com, CorsportUSA.com, EAPW.com Rocky Mountain 73.249 71.676 71.270
T2 33 Mike Lane 2003 Nissan* 350Z Hoosier Washington DC54.178 57.646(2) 56.009(1) 126.839
Frederick, MD Hills Garage/Stranoparts/Motordyne Engineering Northeast 73.564 73.191 72.661 (2.984)
T3 190 Tristan Littlehale 2005 Honda* S2000 BFGoodrich San Francisco 54.799 54.115 54.256 128.478
[90] Saratoga, CA Ankeny Racing Enterprises / BFGoodrich NorPac 75.643 74.733 74.363 (1.639)
T4 192 Lee Piccione 1995 BMW* M3 Hoosier Washington DC58.962(2) 54.452 54.379 128.822
[92] Severn, MD Casey Designs/BimmerHaus/Stranoparts Northeast 74.443 74.496 77.098(1) (0.344)
T5 29 Daniel Stainback 2002 Honda S2000 Hoosier New York 55.298 55.448 54.820 129.863
[129] Northport, NY Thanks Steve Northeast 75.043 75.164 75.611 (1.041)

Street Modified (SM) Drivers: 16 Trophies: 5

T1 99 David White 1995 Nissan* 240SX Hoosier New England 56.276(2) 53.697(1) 51.957 123.792
[199] Chicopee, MA G-Fab Racing Northeast 72.624 73.506(1) 71.835
T2 199 PJ Corrales 1995 Nissan* 240sx Hoosier New England 52.771 52.132 52.201 124.419
[99] Rocky Hill, CT G-Fab Racing, 240sxMotoring Northeast 72.366 72.940 72.287 (0.627)
T3 197 Mike Simanyi 1995 BMW* M3 Hoosier California Spor 53.644 53.130 53.837 125.034
[97] Santa Ana, CA OS Giken, ABL Original Parts SoPac 72.514 72.020 71.904 (0.615)
T4 191 Eric Hyman 2012 Nissan* GT-R Hoosier Northwest 53.950 53.045 54.961(1) 125.260
[91] Fall City, WA Cobb Surgeline/ GT-RR NorPac 73.362(1) 74.048(1) 72.215 (0.226)
T5 91 Troy Dudley 2012 Nissan* Gt-R Hoosier Texas 54.426 53.778 53.262 126.536
[191] Round Rock, TX Fordahl/Cobb/GiroDisc Southwest 75.396(1) 77.256(1) 73.274 (1.276)
6 142 Tyler Faucett 1996 BMW* 328i Hoosier Colorado 56.066 54.341 53.909 127.042
[42] Fort Collins, CO Rocky Mountain 77.673(2) 73.683 73.133 (0.506)
7 60 Ben Martinez 1985 Ford* XR4ti Hoosier San Francisco 54.880 54.665 54.520 128.057
San Jose, CA Mc2Racing NorPac 75.875(1) 73.767 73.537 (1.015)
8 122 Martin Kriz 2006 Subaru WRX STi BFGoodrich Blue Ridge 56.563(1) 54.308 60.681(3) 128.482
[22] Troy, VA IAG Performance, OSgiken, Evolution Performance Northeast 74.174 78.005(2) 75.248 (0.425)
9 46 David Webb 2005 Mitsubishi* lancer evo rs Hoosier Arizona Border61.071(2) 57.029(1) 54.587 128.682
Phoenix, AZ Thanks Frank SoPac 74.095 76.331(1) 75.052 (0.200)

B Stock (BS) Drivers: 14 Trophies: 5

T1 198 James Yom 2008 Honda S2000 CR Hoosier California Spor 75.736 79.186(1) 78.125(1) 129.937
[98] Los Angeles, CA Evasive Motorsports, West End Alignment SoPac 54.760 54.201 56.576(1)
T2 192 Nick Barbato 2008 Honda S2000 CR Hoosier New England 76.335 76.440 77.621(1) 130.072
[92] Wethersfield, CT GT Academy Got it Wrong Northeast 54.547 56.263(1) 53.737 (0.135)
T3 79 Marc Pfannenschmidt 2008 Honda S2000 CR Hoosier Central Kentuck75.992 75.400 77.554(1) 130.142
[179] Louisville, KY Gods Blessings Great Lakes 54.984 54.925 54.742 (0.070)
T4 98 Ryan Clark 2008 Honda S2000 CR Hoosier Northwest 75.713 75.664 75.572 130.884
[198] Calgary, AB NorPac 61.853(3) 56.713(1) 55.312 (0.742)
T5 170 Vivek Goel 2008 Honda s2000 CR Hoosier Lone Star 81.507(2) 77.971 76.609 130.926
[70] Austin, TX Automotive Specialists, FTW Racing Southwest 57.254(1) 54.640 54.317 (0.042)
6 179 Ricky Crow 2008 Honda S2000 CR Hoosier Alamo 77.007 80.182(2) 76.447 131.363
[79] Bulverde, TX My Wallet Southwest 57.299(1) 54.916 56.406(1) (0.437)
7 92 Justin Lau 2008 Honda S2000 CR Hoosier New England 76.975 76.858 76.622 131.531
[192] Norwalk, CT G-Fab Racing Northeast 57.571(1) 54.909 55.294 (0.168)

Street Touring R (STR) Drivers: 50 Trophies: 14 Run Heat: 5

T1 192 Brian Peters 2003 Nissan 350Z Hankook Arizona 83.004(3) 77.203 79.190(1) 133.576
[92] Litchfield Park, AZ ProParts USA SoPac 56.373 58.850(1) 56.628
T2 99 Colin Fiedler 2008 Honda S2000 Dunlop Milwaukee 77.679 77.754 77.328 133.886
Pewaukee, WI Evasive Motorsports Central 57.126 56.558 58.617(1) (0.310)
T3 180 Rob Rockefeller 2003 Honda S2000 Hankook Arizona Border78.834 78.139 77.861 134.671
[80] Tucson, AZ random1racing.com SoPac 56.810 56.893 59.251(1) (0.785)
T4 95 David Marcus 2006 Honda S2000 Dunlop Florida 77.459 78.295 79.797(1) 134.790
[195] Fort Lauderdale, FL Death Grip Racing / Thanks Jon & Tory! Southeast 58.130 57.331 57.404 (0.119)
T5 63 Adam Ruff 2006 Mazda MX-5 Toyo Oregon 77.968 77.864 78.340 135.059
[163] Oregon City, OR Moto-East NorPac 57.514 57.195 57.310 (0.269)
T6 79 David Rock 2002 Toyota Spyder Hankook Arizona Border87.631(3) 78.005 77.868 135.182
Tucson, AZ Sliding Rock Racing SoPac 62.162 57.314 57.533 (0.123)
T7 197 Ken Motonishi 2008 Honda S2000 BFGoodrich California Spor 79.228 81.939(2) 77.855 135.415
[97] Chino Hills, CA OS Giken/ARE/bjoinfilms.com SoPac 57.560 59.377(1) 59.323(1) (0.233)
T8 51 Christopher Lin 2006 Mazda MX5 Hankook Washington DC79.069 78.570 78.168 135.477
[151] King George, VA Thanks James Northeast 57.717 57.580 57.309 (0.062)
T9 164 Justin Neal 2001 Honda S2000 Hankook Washington DC80.037 79.185 78.563 135.654
[64] Falls Church, VA Karcepts Northeast 59.720(1) 59.987(1) 57.091 (0.177)
T10 98 Geoff Walker 2008 Honda S2000 CR Dunlop Tennessee 78.273 78.555 78.627 135.760
[198] Murfreesboro, TN Southeast 57.487 57.528 57.601 (0.106)
T11 194 Jonathan Lugod 2006 Honda S2000 Dunlop San Diego 78.357 78.260 79.806(1) 135.829
[94] Oceanside, CA OS Giken / Ankeny Racing Enterprises SoPac 57.569 58.692(1) 59.152(1) (0.069)

Street Touring Ultra (STU) Drivers: 27 Trophies: 8 Run Heat: 2

T1 21 Geoff Clark 2006 Mitsubishi* Evo Dunlop* Northwest 81.332(2) 76.227 75.716 131.680
Monroe, WA MAPerformance/CiroDesign/TacoTimeNW NorPac 55.964 62.445(2) 56.500
T2 183 Josh Luster 2006 Subaru Sti BFGoodrich Washington DC80.103(2) 76.434 76.133 132.546
[83] Elkton, MD AgileAuto.com/Stranoparts.com Northeast 56.413 60.520(2) 56.860 (0.866)
T3 98 John Hale 2006 Subaru WRX STI BFGoodrich Lone Star 76.272 79.171(1) 76.781 133.287
Austin, TX Grimmspeed \ RTRT \ FTW Racing Southwest 57.015 60.198(1) 57.222 (0.741)
T4 83 Shane Chinonn-Rhoden 2006 Subaru WRX STi BFGoodrich Washington DC83.667(3) 82.446(2) 76.683 133.576
[183] Laurel, MD Agile Automotive Performance Northeast 60.503(2) 60.906(2) 56.893 (0.289)
T5 92 Jon Pomrenke 2006 Subaru WRX STI BFGoodrich Lone Star 85.516(1) DNF 77.905 134.929
[192] AUSTIN, TX COBB Tuning Southwest 58.370 57.553 57.024 (1.353)
T6 145 Mark Hill 2006 Mitsubishi* E-voh IX Dunlop* Kansas 77.854 77.928 78.755 135.484
[45] Lawrence, KS JAYHAWK RACING Midwest DNF 57.849 57.630 (0.555)
T7 197 Rick Jung 2003 Mitsubishi* Evolution Dunlop California Spor 82.358(2) 78.320 77.837 135.718

^^^ Agreed 100%. The S2000 is a shitty daily driver. Too loud. No room for anything. Doesn't even get that good of gas mileage for how small and low-power it is. Horrible blind spots (with the OEM top up) which makes it annoying to back up and harder to see traffic to the side of you on the highway.

Originally Posted by yamahaSHO

Stock for stock... The Evo has more power and powers four wheels. Otherwise, "in any situation". LOL


So wheel hp is not wheel hp?? Huh...

Originally Posted by yamahaSHO

WHEEL horsepower is WHEEL horsepower. This is AFTER drivetrain loss.

Originally Posted by woodburn

Lol apparently you don't race

Originally Posted by woodburn

Yeah well there's ignorant people on every forum.

Originally Posted by yamahaSHO

Lol apparently you don't race

Originally Posted by woodburn

Yeah well there's ignorant people on every forum.

Originally Posted by woodburn

Yeah well an awd car accelerates differently then a rwd car therfore need more whp then the rwd car to compete. I thought we were past this discussion and assume you knew.

Originally Posted by woodburn

Also who the hell post in the racing section...lol