I will give the IS-F (esp. an '11+ w/ LSD) a hard look when it's time to replace my M3 (who knows when).

 

That one. He said Toyota couldn't build performance cars because it lacked the experience/winnings in its racing history. It is so cute that he thought racing divisions and production divisions share the same engineers, developers, etc. At best, they'd have a tiny bit of influence.

The simple truth of the matter is, Toyota and Honda have an entirely different focus of production than Porsche, BMW, etc. Performance and sports cars are not their main objectives; it's not that they are unable or lack the racing experiences to produce those types of cars.

 

drive by wire throttle

 

This goes directly against what you said at the beginning of the thread (which I agree with). Just because Toyota doesn't make a lot of sports cars doesn't mean its engineers don't understand vehicle dynamics. Not having made a "sports sedan" before is no excuse.

Ultimately, as you said before, it's a compromise between countless factors (price, performance, luxury, safety, etc.). What it comes down to is how small you can make the sacrifices in one regard to achieve your goals in others. The 95% is not Toyota "letting BMW win because they know BMW will never give up the performance title." It's simply Toyota not doing as good of a job. I think the updated IS-F is proof of that. In vehicle dynamics, the difference between great and average is not 50% or even 25%. It's the 5% between the IS-F and the M3 that separates average from the great. That's why I don't really care much about the magazine racers, as that 5% is pretty inconsequential on the road.

The REAL advantage BMW has, in my opinion, is the decades of data about what their enthusiasts like and don't like when it comes to the subjective stuff. THAT's what usually decides purchases, and THAT'S where Toyota is at a disadvantage.

 

forged internals and use of titanium for reliable high revving operations. (applied to the s2000.

 

LOL! Forged internals have been around since waaaaay before the NSX. What is titanium in the S2000's engine? It's pretty similar to an overgrown sportbike engine.

 

Really? In what production Honda car?

 

actually, I think everything I've said is compatible (at least in my head...ha). It doesn't always translate to forums the way the voices in my head say it.

The iteration thing...Part of what I was trying to get at was the fact that the IS lineup was not designed with an F variant in mind. The F model idea came later, and engineers/accountants were limited in what they could actually do and maintain profitability. You can't just junk the chassis and start over. You can't take the LSD out of another F model and tweak it to work in your IS-F, because there are none. I assume that will change in the future...and F models will be considered during the design of the base models. Could be wrong, but it seems likely, right?

The comments I made about Lexus not being serious about ever beating BMW at their own game still stand - I don't think you'll see Lexus, Audi, or MB ever make a car that really sticks it to the M3 in terms of performance, unless they do it by accident (which would be short lived). No one wins in that scenario. Instead, those brands will be very close to BMW performance but offer very substantial advantages and personalities that will appeal to good numbers of people who have different priorities, budgets, and tastes but still want a great performer (who are we all kidding; all of those cars f'ing kick ass).

When you take the comments I made together, it might sound like I think Lexus won't improve their product...I don't mean to convey that at all. I think there was a lot of room for the 08 IS-F to improve, and it really has in the 2010 (LSD) and 2011 (new suspension) models. I think they will continue to address complaint areas, but will always be just slightly slower around an average track than the M3...but in exchange you pay less money, get famed reliability, 50% better mileage, no gas guzzler tax, different interior (not going to say superior since it's purely opinion), and a much less commonplace ride.

At the end of the day, each of these brands has a responsibility to carve out a brand identity - the mags have created (and we have perpetuated) a non-existant performance war between these companies, and we all believe that BMW is just so great that they win every time. It's not the case; BMW is winning on performance but that isn't the war that the other brands are fighting.

 

So lets see, so far we have DBW and forged internals... thats it? and what is titanium in the s2000?

LOL

If honda was leading manufacturer in all aluminum construction I would agree with this trickle down idea since the nsx was the first all aluminum production car. But forged internals and dbw, while they didnt exist in a honda, had been around for awhile. And once one manufacturer has some new tech, all other will follow suit (DCT/DBW) for example, that isn't hard.

So unless an ISF is gonna have cf a-pillars, a detuned motor from the LFA, or a cool dash screen as in the LFA I'm not exactly buying this tech transfer idea (i know theres more tech in the car). Mclaren developed a new way to construct its cars resulting in a drastic price drop over the slr for its new model. When they apply that to future lower models that would be tech transfer. Not just incorporating something that has been around for years from other manufacturers.

 

dude, pretty certain the NSX was the first honda product with variable valve timing. That is a defining characteristic of honda at this point.