Lexus Performance Credibility
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From: Scottsdale
Originally Posted by JakeJewler,Jan 11 2011, 01:00 PM
What does it being the first model have to do with anything? How does an E30 M3 have much to do with a E92 M3? Its not like they were fine tuning the same platform over and over. Every generation of the 3 was designed from the ground up. They are completely different cars than the previous generations. Did Lexus F engineers just graduate college? Despite improvements(VIR) I'd still wager the E92 M3 would hand the Lexus its ass in most categories. You are driving an imitation. Its okay, I've driven a lot in my day. Everybody knows who Lexus was gunning for.
I don't even know what to say to most of that, but I will say that it absolutely matters how many iterations a car has gone through. It's not about the parts carrying over. It's the design process, knowing what works, having a general template for how to build a successful sports sedan, general design principles, and perhaps most importantly, a tradition of spending R&D money on these types of cars. It's the same as saying that BMW has been building these types of cars for a long, long time and Lexus has not. If you think that BMW hasn't learned anything or gained a competitive advantage by doing that, then you're just...hopeless (ok, maybe they haven't learned how to make a reliable set of electronics, I'll give you that)
You can hate on lexus all you want, I'm not a fanboi. I never said that the IS-F will spank an M3 in any category except the obvious. I've said several times recently that I don't think Lexus will ever actually surpass BMW on the performance end...just like the G37 will never quite best the 335i...because it doesn't make sense to do it. Almost everyone wrongly assumes that lexus, audi, and benz are flailing in an futile attempt to best the M3 around a track and in a straight line, and while that is a natural assumption, it doesn't make good business sense. Assuming these car company executives have an MBA and attended a 100-level strategy class, it will never happen. Those non-BMW cars have different value propositions and brand identities. So your assertion that Lexus is an imitation is based on overly simplistic understanding of lexus' objectives, and makes you sound like a fanboi that talks down about other cars just because they aren't BMWs.
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From: Montreal
Numb steering, horrible manual transmissions, boat feel. They are made for people who prefer comfort over performance.
Nothing wrong with that, I'm sure if they wanted they could make their cars feel more lively but then they would lose some of their clientele who prefer couches on wheels.
Nothing wrong with that, I'm sure if they wanted they could make their cars feel more lively but then they would lose some of their clientele who prefer couches on wheels.
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From: North Richland Hills, TX
Originally Posted by Jacques79,Jan 11 2011, 08:40 PM
horrible manual transmissions,
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From: Scottsdale
Originally Posted by Jacques79,Jan 11 2011, 06:40 PM
Numb steering, horrible manual transmissions, boat feel. They are made for people who prefer comfort over performance.
Nothing wrong with that, I'm sure if they wanted they could make their cars feel more lively but then they would lose some of their clientele who prefer couches on wheels.
Nothing wrong with that, I'm sure if they wanted they could make their cars feel more lively but then they would lose some of their clientele who prefer couches on wheels.
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Originally Posted by Diabl0,Jan 10 2011, 06:13 PM
Its pretty simple. Unless, a car manufacturer is successfull in motorsports they will not excel in making proper sports cars. Engineering innovations from motorsports always trickle down into road cars.
Toyota/Lexus have had really bad experiences in motorsports. They threw more money than god at F1 and did not win a single race. At one point, Toyota F1 had the largest budget in F1 which says alot when you have Ferrari and McLaren there too.
On the other hand, Honda (F1, Indy etc), Audi (WRC, DTM), MB(F1,DTM etc) BMW(F1, DTM etc) and many more had huge successes in motorsports and are able to use that same R&D in making proper sports cars. In a nutshell, they know what works.
Toyota/Lexus have had really bad experiences in motorsports. They threw more money than god at F1 and did not win a single race. At one point, Toyota F1 had the largest budget in F1 which says alot when you have Ferrari and McLaren there too.
On the other hand, Honda (F1, Indy etc), Audi (WRC, DTM), MB(F1,DTM etc) BMW(F1, DTM etc) and many more had huge successes in motorsports and are able to use that same R&D in making proper sports cars. In a nutshell, they know what works.
It's not that simple, jack.Racing divisions and production car divisions are two totally different entities with different engineers and developers. Some innovations may trickle down nto production cars, but not always a case. It all depends on the types and focus of vehicles the manufacturer intends to produce. Toyota has won MANY races in NASCAR and JGTC/Super GT, just to name 2. What innovations from NASCAR that can trickle down into their family cars that they did not know already? Some motorsports are just motorsports, and they don't always have to trickle down a damn shit.
In a nutshell, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
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From: The Island of Long
Let us not insult others... I like where this thread is going and a great deal of good points are being made. I want to hear the people that actually have something productive to say speak.
Thank you!
Thank you!
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Originally Posted by sahtt,Jan 11 2011, 04:40 PM
Not sure I really follow this line of thinking.
As far as cars go, the only Lexus that is actually an upgraded Toyota is the ES. I don't think they are fooling anyone there.
There is no Toyota equivalent to the IS, GS, or LS; which I believe are what most people think of when they imagine a Lexus. If you don't understand that, it's a little pointless to go any further in the conversation.
The objective of Lexus is to make money in the long term. The average luxury car buyer (new cars) in their mid 50's probably thinks an M or AMG model is an idiotic concept. Those models erode most of the finer attributes of a luxury car (road noise, ride quality, etc.) and increase their price substantially. Sure for a driving enthusiast it's a great combination, but that should be allocated a very small amount of resources, much of which is for brand management, not actually attempting to profit from a certain tiny segment of the car buying population.
The opinions of how boring a Lexus is to drive seem a little misplaced. They sell the most luxury cars. They have found what works and implement it well. It shouldn't surprise anyone that an effortless and often numb driving experience is what most people want then they purchase a luxury (note not sports) car.
People make the differences between the luxury brand's chracteristics during daily use (not beating the $hit out of the cars which <1% of the new luxury car buyers will do) to be way more substantial than they are. Last I checked most people spend almost the entire time in their car going straight on a highway or sitting in city traffic. What percentage of 45-65 yr old people give a $hit if the steering feel in the BMW is a little better (this is mostly because it's heavier IMO) in these situations? And people say they need to add racing seats and retune the fuel map to get more sales??
Lexus developed and refined the reliable luxury car. The LS is extremely fuel efficient (better than the s2000 with 380hp and while weighing two tons) and was the first car with an 8spd auto tranny. It drives effortlessly on the highway and doesn't need any real maintenance until 100k miles just like a camry.
Now which car would I take for free? **** yea it would be an M5. Now what if I had to pay for it and keep the car for ten years like many regular consumers probably plan on doing and primarily using it for my work commute in annoying traffic? LS.
As far as cars go, the only Lexus that is actually an upgraded Toyota is the ES. I don't think they are fooling anyone there.
There is no Toyota equivalent to the IS, GS, or LS; which I believe are what most people think of when they imagine a Lexus. If you don't understand that, it's a little pointless to go any further in the conversation.
The objective of Lexus is to make money in the long term. The average luxury car buyer (new cars) in their mid 50's probably thinks an M or AMG model is an idiotic concept. Those models erode most of the finer attributes of a luxury car (road noise, ride quality, etc.) and increase their price substantially. Sure for a driving enthusiast it's a great combination, but that should be allocated a very small amount of resources, much of which is for brand management, not actually attempting to profit from a certain tiny segment of the car buying population.
The opinions of how boring a Lexus is to drive seem a little misplaced. They sell the most luxury cars. They have found what works and implement it well. It shouldn't surprise anyone that an effortless and often numb driving experience is what most people want then they purchase a luxury (note not sports) car.
People make the differences between the luxury brand's chracteristics during daily use (not beating the $hit out of the cars which <1% of the new luxury car buyers will do) to be way more substantial than they are. Last I checked most people spend almost the entire time in their car going straight on a highway or sitting in city traffic. What percentage of 45-65 yr old people give a $hit if the steering feel in the BMW is a little better (this is mostly because it's heavier IMO) in these situations? And people say they need to add racing seats and retune the fuel map to get more sales??
Lexus developed and refined the reliable luxury car. The LS is extremely fuel efficient (better than the s2000 with 380hp and while weighing two tons) and was the first car with an 8spd auto tranny. It drives effortlessly on the highway and doesn't need any real maintenance until 100k miles just like a camry.
Now which car would I take for free? **** yea it would be an M5. Now what if I had to pay for it and keep the car for ten years like many regular consumers probably plan on doing and primarily using it for my work commute in annoying traffic? LS.
Same can be said about the acura line-up. Is the tsx different than a japan or euro accord?
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From: Toronto
Originally Posted by Steponme,Jan 11 2011, 11:37 PM
This guy has no idea what he's talking about. It's not that simple, jack.
Racing divisions and production car divisions are two totally different entities with different engineers and developers. Some innovations may trickle down nto production cars, but not always a case. It all depends on the types and focus of vehicles the manufacturer intends to produce. Toyota has won MANY races in NASCAR and JGTC/Super GT, just to name 2. What innovations from NASCAR that can trickle down into their family cars that they did not know already? Some motorsports are just motorsports, and they don't always have to trickle down a damn shit.
In a nutshell, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
It's not that simple, jack.Racing divisions and production car divisions are two totally different entities with different engineers and developers. Some innovations may trickle down nto production cars, but not always a case. It all depends on the types and focus of vehicles the manufacturer intends to produce. Toyota has won MANY races in NASCAR and JGTC/Super GT, just to name 2. What innovations from NASCAR that can trickle down into their family cars that they did not know already? Some motorsports are just motorsports, and they don't always have to trickle down a damn shit.
In a nutshell, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
Obviously, you're oblivious to what motorsports entail.
Not even sure why you're on this forum if you're into NASCAR.
