K Swap vs building F22c
06-27-2019, 07:43 PM
#31
You are absolutely right about the power steering...I was looking at the bracket which is called an a/c and ps eliminator because of its use also on EF swaps.
The point on weight is also accurate, although those swaps are common. In K-Miata or Civic swaps the K-series, which is a fine engine, is a serious upgrade from the standard engine. In the S2000 it is a lateral move (at best) with disadvantages that and costs that IMHO outweigh any advantages.
You are also right, an LS or 2JZ swap is about power. If power isn't the goal, why would you swap?
The K-series does have more bolt-ons and parts in general. To be expected, since the K-series was widely used and the F-series was only used in a limited production sports car for a short period of time. However, the overwhelming majority of those bolt-ons, from intakes to superchargers to headers to camshafts, don't fit the s2000. And, many just bring the K-series near the performance level the S2000 left the factory at.
The driveline of the S2000 gets replaced at higher power levels whether the engine is an F20/F22c, K-series, LS, 2JZ, etc. There is some debate about the power level the transmission and the diff are no longer viable. Right now, the car out of production 10 years, those kits are still available. 10 years from now? How many cars that went out of production in the 1990s still have a vibrant performance part business behind them?
What were you planning to do that will keep blowing up engines? The K-series and F-series are pretty strong. A less expensive alternative might be to build the engine with parts that will meet your requirements without blowing up. Ten years from now, do you expect S2000 K-swap parts (intakes, the water hose adapter, flywheels, engine mounts, etc.) to still be readily available? We also have a 1938 Buick...where making a repair often involves hunting down NOS (new old stock) or reconditioning parts, often on a swap basis.
The point on weight is also accurate, although those swaps are common. In K-Miata or Civic swaps the K-series, which is a fine engine, is a serious upgrade from the standard engine. In the S2000 it is a lateral move (at best) with disadvantages that and costs that IMHO outweigh any advantages.
You are also right, an LS or 2JZ swap is about power. If power isn't the goal, why would you swap?
The K-series does have more bolt-ons and parts in general. To be expected, since the K-series was widely used and the F-series was only used in a limited production sports car for a short period of time. However, the overwhelming majority of those bolt-ons, from intakes to superchargers to headers to camshafts, don't fit the s2000. And, many just bring the K-series near the performance level the S2000 left the factory at.
The driveline of the S2000 gets replaced at higher power levels whether the engine is an F20/F22c, K-series, LS, 2JZ, etc. There is some debate about the power level the transmission and the diff are no longer viable. Right now, the car out of production 10 years, those kits are still available. 10 years from now? How many cars that went out of production in the 1990s still have a vibrant performance part business behind them?
What were you planning to do that will keep blowing up engines? The K-series and F-series are pretty strong. A less expensive alternative might be to build the engine with parts that will meet your requirements without blowing up. Ten years from now, do you expect S2000 K-swap parts (intakes, the water hose adapter, flywheels, engine mounts, etc.) to still be readily available? We also have a 1938 Buick...where making a repair often involves hunting down NOS (new old stock) or reconditioning parts, often on a swap basis.
06-28-2019, 06:42 PM
#32
Right now, the car out of production 10 years, those kits are still available. 10 years from now? How many cars that went out of production in the 1990s still have a vibrant performance part business behind them?
What were you planning to do that will keep blowing up engines? The K-series and F-series are pretty strong. A less expensive alternative might be to build the engine with parts that will meet your requirements without blowing up. Ten years from now, do you expect S2000 K-swap parts (intakes, the water hose adapter, flywheels, engine mounts, etc.) to still be readily available? We also have a 1938 Buick...where making a repair often involves hunting down NOS (new old stock) or reconditioning parts, often on a swap basis.
What were you planning to do that will keep blowing up engines? The K-series and F-series are pretty strong. A less expensive alternative might be to build the engine with parts that will meet your requirements without blowing up. Ten years from now, do you expect S2000 K-swap parts (intakes, the water hose adapter, flywheels, engine mounts, etc.) to still be readily available? We also have a 1938 Buick...where making a repair often involves hunting down NOS (new old stock) or reconditioning parts, often on a swap basis.
06-28-2019, 08:05 PM
#33
Not many cars from the 90s still have a huge amount of support for their performance parts. However, the EF/EG/EK/DC2 chassis and B-series engines still have a ton of support as far as I can tell. 240sx's with engine swaps still have a ton of aftermarket support. Those are the few 90s platforms that I'm familiar with and have interest in as a strong value proposition for driving fun/performance. I'm not currently planning to do anything that blows engines. Autocross doesn't tend to do that much but the track crowd seems to fall victim every so often. There is no such thing as a forever engine when tracking and you're risking less capital and a more easily replaceable engine running with a k20a2 or k24a2. It just costs the up-front conversion cost to be able to risk less from a consumable engine perspective. Once you have the conversion parts, you're risking a readily available 1-2k engine(K-series) vs. a 3-4k engine (F-series). Those engines are capable of outperforming an F-series in a straight numbers comparison NA from a stock block. To the question of conversion parts being available... It's only relevant for consumables. Valid question, but are intakes/engine mounts/water hose adapters really considered consumables? I think engines are more consumable if we're assuming stiff, track oriented engine mounts.
If you follow the threads here, blown engines are a function of low oil level (apparently, a baffle isn't needed if the oil level is right) or component failure. If you are going to track a 150k mile engine that hasn't been rebuilt with new pistons, pins, valve springs, retainers, keepers, rocker arms, and maybe rods (or at least crack checked rods) or didn't address bore wear or damage with sleeving...maybe your priorities are wrong for the racing you are doing.
You are free to do an S2k K-swap.
07-03-2019, 05:23 AM
#34
Moderator
LS beats a Kswap on an s2000 if the intent is power, track only, or where regular driveability is just not concern. LS swap changes the balance and the character of the car; and mate it with a T56, the car really loses A LOT of nimbleness and character of what makes an s2k an s2k. If power is the goal, LS or 2jz all day.
For my car (that I've owned since brand new in Feb 2000), the LS had to go. In search of NA and more torque, I went from an F20c with bolt on mods and Mugen ECU to an F22 with same mods. Then to the LS....and now finally K24 with K20 head. The car is everything I think it should have been from the factory, 255hp and 200 ft/lbs to the wheels with much of that available right at about 5k rpm using E85. In off season, I'll be looking to to make the engine breathe easier and we'll be looking at custom header and exhaust and a freer flowing intake with some more tuning. Balance and character of the car is back, it's enjoyable to drive on mountain roads, and reliable enough to daily it.
Oh yeah, I kept PS and AC in all my swaps. I have another S2K with a F22 swap that I built for my wife. I never considered doing anything more to it...but this summer being first for the K24 swap, I could/would consider swapping in a stock K24 with a SC on that car. Cheap reliable motor, better torque than stock F22, greater availability for for replacement motors, greater aftermarket support, and with more capable with boost versus f-motor.
For my car (that I've owned since brand new in Feb 2000), the LS had to go. In search of NA and more torque, I went from an F20c with bolt on mods and Mugen ECU to an F22 with same mods. Then to the LS....and now finally K24 with K20 head. The car is everything I think it should have been from the factory, 255hp and 200 ft/lbs to the wheels with much of that available right at about 5k rpm using E85. In off season, I'll be looking to to make the engine breathe easier and we'll be looking at custom header and exhaust and a freer flowing intake with some more tuning. Balance and character of the car is back, it's enjoyable to drive on mountain roads, and reliable enough to daily it.
Oh yeah, I kept PS and AC in all my swaps. I have another S2K with a F22 swap that I built for my wife. I never considered doing anything more to it...but this summer being first for the K24 swap, I could/would consider swapping in a stock K24 with a SC on that car. Cheap reliable motor, better torque than stock F22, greater availability for for replacement motors, greater aftermarket support, and with more capable with boost versus f-motor.
If someone is looking for power on pump gas, an LS beats a K-swap. People also swap 2JZ-GTE engines, however, I don't see that as a big advantage over a K-series. It just swaps displacement for revs. The LS adds a lot of displacement in a compact package.
If E85 or C85+ is available, the question becomes what the target power level is.
Unless starting with a salvage car with no engine and being built without air conditioning or power steering. How many of them are there? What if there is no transmission? Is a K-swap to CD009 or Tremec adapter available?
Unless a rod is sticking out the side of the block, an S2000 engine should be repairable. Sleeves are the norm for a performance build. Crank, rods, and pistons are available and all can be custom ordered for a reasonable cost. An aftermarket head is available. After electronics, p/s, and a/c, is the K-swap really that cheap?
What is the scenario where a K-swap S2000 makes sense? In that case, if it exists, does it really make more sense than a K-Miata or AWD K-swap Civic/Integra?
If E85 or C85+ is available, the question becomes what the target power level is.
Unless starting with a salvage car with no engine and being built without air conditioning or power steering. How many of them are there? What if there is no transmission? Is a K-swap to CD009 or Tremec adapter available?
Unless a rod is sticking out the side of the block, an S2000 engine should be repairable. Sleeves are the norm for a performance build. Crank, rods, and pistons are available and all can be custom ordered for a reasonable cost. An aftermarket head is available. After electronics, p/s, and a/c, is the K-swap really that cheap?
What is the scenario where a K-swap S2000 makes sense? In that case, if it exists, does it really make more sense than a K-Miata or AWD K-swap Civic/Integra?
07-03-2019, 05:28 AM
#35
Moderator
...LS and 2JZ-GTE weigh significantly more than a K series and don't play nicely with an S2k drivetrain to say the least. I don't see why power steering would be an issue since we have an electronic steering rack. The S2k's transmission should be sufficient for an NA K-swap. I don't think the first engine provides a positive value proposition for the swap, unless the goal is to make > 250ish whp. It seems the K series makes more WHP with bolt-ons than the F-series. I've heard the F-series bottom end is stronger but do not have quantitative data to back that up. The best part about the K series is that, provided you have a good F series, you can sell your F for the cost of a swap kit. You can then buy a K-series for much cheaper than an F replacement. If that engine blows, replacement costs are much cheaper than an equivalent K. That replacement cost differential will probably increase in the future as F series become even more rare and K-series likely won't feel the same supply shortage.....
Don't get me started on sourcing t56 trans either....that trans cost as much as the motor, the Camarao SS rear end, and some of the swap parts combined. ...and once driving, I felt like I was driving a manual trans truck. Aside for being able to take a beating, I don't see the draw to that trans.
07-03-2019, 03:15 PM
#36
To add to your thought, the K motor is CONSIDERABLY cheaper than a like-mileage LS to 2JZ. In my case, the LS swap also cost considerably more than the K swap, and in my opinion, I got better quality swap parts for K swap over the LS swap....I also have a K24 Prayontoo block on my build over the stock LS motor I used (and the K swap still was less expensive).
Don't get me started on sourcing t56 trans either....that trans cost as much as the motor, the Camarao SS rear end, and some of the swap parts combined. ...and once driving, I felt like I was driving a manual trans truck. Aside for being able to take a beating, I don't see the draw to that trans.
Don't get me started on sourcing t56 trans either....that trans cost as much as the motor, the Camarao SS rear end, and some of the swap parts combined. ...and once driving, I felt like I was driving a manual trans truck. Aside for being able to take a beating, I don't see the draw to that trans.
Last edited by Charper732; 07-03-2019 at 03:21 PM.
08-05-2019, 09:20 AM
#37
Moderator
I have driven other cars with T56 variations. None of them have the feel like the S2k (trade offs, trans that can handle 300+ ft lbs but isn't the silkiest versus one designed for use in a lightweight car with low torque, meant to be driven like a British roadster and adds to the experience versus detracting from it). ...and just so that we are on scope, conversation regarding swap was directed towards pricing. Please let me know how cheap you can get these T56 variants for.
08-10-2019, 01:07 PM
#38
KMiata has now developed a timing cover that will let you run a K24Z3 on the normal K series wiring / KPro ECU and written a nice blog post about it. This drops the swap cost even more and simplifies the exhaust for people looking to just turbo the thing.
https://kmiata.com/blogs/news/game-c...3-swap-is-here
https://kmiata.com/blogs/news/game-c...3-swap-is-here
01-21-2022, 01:36 AM
#39
Registered User
I have not bought anything as of yet for K swap. I'm still on the fence. I've been taking my LS2000 out a couple of times a week for mundane drive (pick up coffee, go pick up one of my kids from school (take him/her to school), etc.). I still like the LS swap.....just not for what I ended up building the car for. There's part of me that's interested in taking this car to full track mode, in which case, I keep it LS swapped. This particular car is too beautiful (to me) to turn into a track only car and taking into consideration that I won't have too much time to dedicated to open track days/events with two children in prime parenting age, two businesses I'm running, etc. If I was to build another track only s2k, it wouldn't be with this one....but it'd for sure be an LS swap. K swap is nice, but LS swap is cheaper and has much more flexibility.
If I rebuild my LS2000, I'm not sure I'll use Ballade components. Knowing what I know on cost of and time to have my own adaptor and trans mounts made, I may go that route. I'll go with hasport mounts, have a friend make a custom header and water hose elbow, make my own jumper harness, and K-Pro. We'll see though. I've heard of rumors of other companies coming out with their own full Kswap kits. I don't plan to do anything right away, if I do, it'll probably start in late fall or early winter. I'll part out the GM driveline first (if anyone knows of anyone interested in turnkey swap components let me know). WHatevever I sell the LS swap for will fund my Kswap.
Being on S2Ki so long, I posted my mods and pics of my cars here and there. I did do one build thread for my wife's s2k years back. I'll try to put in effort to put together a build thread for this one...we'll see.
If I rebuild my LS2000, I'm not sure I'll use Ballade components. Knowing what I know on cost of and time to have my own adaptor and trans mounts made, I may go that route. I'll go with hasport mounts, have a friend make a custom header and water hose elbow, make my own jumper harness, and K-Pro. We'll see though. I've heard of rumors of other companies coming out with their own full Kswap kits. I don't plan to do anything right away, if I do, it'll probably start in late fall or early winter. I'll part out the GM driveline first (if anyone knows of anyone interested in turnkey swap components let me know). WHatevever I sell the LS swap for will fund my Kswap.
Being on S2Ki so long, I posted my mods and pics of my cars here and there. I did do one build thread for my wife's s2k years back. I'll try to put in effort to put together a build thread for this one...we'll see.
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