the Official "NA Tuning" thread
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,106
Likes: 2
From: PNW
whenever i see ams, i think "alma mater society" - a club here at school.
damn you luigi, its aem or ems.
If you want all the power of it, you'll need to take that ams down to TorqueFreaks in Portland, OR and get ready to cough out over $700 for tuning.
damn you luigi, its aem or ems.
If you want all the power of it, you'll need to take that ams down to TorqueFreaks in Portland, OR and get ready to cough out over $700 for tuning.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 6
From: DFW, TX
Originally Posted by WyattH,Jan 16 2006, 07:27 PM
whenever i see ams, i think "alma mater society" - a club here at school.
damn you luigi, its aem or ems.
If you want all the power of it, you'll need to take that ams down to TorqueFreaks in Portland, OR and get ready to cough out over $700 for tuning.
damn you luigi, its aem or ems.
If you want all the power of it, you'll need to take that ams down to TorqueFreaks in Portland, OR and get ready to cough out over $700 for tuning.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 838
Likes: 5
From: MI
Originally Posted by Dark Blue Mark,Jan 15 2006, 07:10 PM
Quick question,
Im very interested in the J's setup (ECU / Intake / Header etc)
On the ECU part, if you went for a wideband lambda and then tuned the fuelling using a VAFC, would the stock ECU have the capacity to adjust the timing, combined with the above mods? I imagine it would.
Suppose the benefit of the J's ECU is the fuelling and more advanced timing.
Second question, am I right in saying the primary O2 becomes passive on VTEC (open loop) and the MAP sensor totally governs the fuelling, along with fixed fuel maps in the ECU?
I appreciate that on part throttle the ECU uses the lambda etc to give the most efficient means of fuelling.
MB
Im very interested in the J's setup (ECU / Intake / Header etc)
On the ECU part, if you went for a wideband lambda and then tuned the fuelling using a VAFC, would the stock ECU have the capacity to adjust the timing, combined with the above mods? I imagine it would.
Suppose the benefit of the J's ECU is the fuelling and more advanced timing.
Second question, am I right in saying the primary O2 becomes passive on VTEC (open loop) and the MAP sensor totally governs the fuelling, along with fixed fuel maps in the ECU?
I appreciate that on part throttle the ECU uses the lambda etc to give the most efficient means of fuelling.
MB
J's ECU = modified fuel/ignition maps, VTEC points, redline, etc.
The difference between open loop and closed loop is the O2 sensor affecting fuel control.
Open loop is basically full throttle (ECU checks for MAP to be over a certain pressure, TPS percent)
Closed loop is driving around light/part throttle. The ECU will only go into closed loop if certain parameters are met. (Coolant warmed up, engine running time, etc.)
As far as fuel control under wide open throttle, you are close. RPM and MAP (hence speed/density) govern the fuel/ignition maps. Coolant temp. modifies this fixed map. Also, there is something called Long Term Fuel Trim that adds or subracts fuel from this fixed map based on your driving style and engine's condition. LTFT is modified over a long period of time.
For the most part, the ECU controlling fuel on part throttle is for drivability, economy, and emissions. The reason why the mixture is constanstly switching from rich to lean is because different parts of the catalytic converter (NOx reduction, and HC reduction) operate more efficiently at different temperatures.
For what its worth, on my daily driven S2000, I'm considering either using the Amuse knock retard ECU w/ a VAFCII or just doing an AEM EMS. The only debate is whether its worth my time to get stock like drivability out of the EMS.
Hope this helps.
-Andrew
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 6
From: DFW, TX
Originally Posted by suterusu,Jan 16 2006, 07:49 PM
I'm not sure if the J's ECU still has the knock retard in place. That'd be a question for AJ-Racing. One ECU I know for sure keeps the knock retard is the new Amuse Hi-Tech ROM VR. Contact Ben on that (when he gets back).
J's ECU = modified fuel/ignition maps, VTEC points, redline, etc.
The difference between open loop and closed loop is the O2 sensor affecting fuel control.
Open loop is basically full throttle (ECU checks for MAP to be over a certain pressure, TPS percent)
Closed loop is driving around light/part throttle. The ECU will only go into closed loop if certain parameters are met. (Coolant warmed up, engine running time, etc.)
As far as fuel control under wide open throttle, you are close. RPM and MAP (hence speed/density) govern the fuel/ignition maps. Coolant temp. modifies this fixed map. Also, there is something called Long Term Fuel Trim that adds or subracts fuel from this fixed map based on your driving style and engine's condition. LTFT is modified over a long period of time.
For the most part, the ECU controlling fuel on part throttle is for drivability, economy, and emissions. The reason why the mixture is constanstly switching from rich to lean is because different parts of the catalytic converter (NOx reduction, and HC reduction) operate more efficiently at different temperatures.
For what its worth, on my daily driven S2000, I'm considering either using the Amuse knock retard ECU w/ a VAFCII or just doing an AEM EMS. The only debate is whether its worth my time to get stock like drivability out of the EMS.
Hope this helps.
-Andrew
J's ECU = modified fuel/ignition maps, VTEC points, redline, etc.
The difference between open loop and closed loop is the O2 sensor affecting fuel control.
Open loop is basically full throttle (ECU checks for MAP to be over a certain pressure, TPS percent)
Closed loop is driving around light/part throttle. The ECU will only go into closed loop if certain parameters are met. (Coolant warmed up, engine running time, etc.)
As far as fuel control under wide open throttle, you are close. RPM and MAP (hence speed/density) govern the fuel/ignition maps. Coolant temp. modifies this fixed map. Also, there is something called Long Term Fuel Trim that adds or subracts fuel from this fixed map based on your driving style and engine's condition. LTFT is modified over a long period of time.
For the most part, the ECU controlling fuel on part throttle is for drivability, economy, and emissions. The reason why the mixture is constanstly switching from rich to lean is because different parts of the catalytic converter (NOx reduction, and HC reduction) operate more efficiently at different temperatures.
For what its worth, on my daily driven S2000, I'm considering either using the Amuse knock retard ECU w/ a VAFCII or just doing an AEM EMS. The only debate is whether its worth my time to get stock like drivability out of the EMS.
Hope this helps.
-Andrew
due to not as complex of an idle map as that which Honda developed the EMS can have a hard time holding idle at rpms around 700rpm. This isn't a problem as you will probably idle around 1000rpm but where it does come into play is slipping the clutch from a start. I don't think this is a problem for many, but before the EMS, a lot of the time when getting the car going from a a stop I would give it little gas and slip the clutch. For a brief period the rpms are around 700. With the EMS I had to learn how to drive over again in the fact that now I'll rev to 2000-2500 rpm when getting of the line and let the rpms come down to 1500 or so not 700. Its pretty minor and actually makes me drive it a little faster from a stop, as before I was pretty much babying it away from the lights.
the other thing is starting as you'd know if you researched EMS's the starting map is not as complex as Honda's either. This makes it take a couple cranks longer to get the engine to start. Again, not a problem, just hold the button down for an extra second. However, as I've noticed now in the cold, when trying to start it at 28 degrees F sometimes you have to hold the button down for a minute while it sputters and tells you it would rather not run, then finally comes alive. Annoying but it wont happen in warm climates and it may be telling me I'm due for an oil change as well. Also, I've had this problem on the stock ECU before as well...not as frequent at all, but there have been times in very cold temps when the car would take several cranks to start.
Everything else as far as driveabilty is better IMO, has more useable torque, and acts just like stock, only faster.
So basically you can't really expect AEM to have as complex of starting and idling maps as Honda either...honda spent much more time, and focused on the one car...AEM didn't because they can't. Their software covers several different vehicles and still works very well.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,993
Likes: 1
From: formerly versionJDM
the j's ecu does use the knock sensor, its the only aftermarket JDM ecu that does.....to my knowledge.
silver....interesting points you make, what about our chipped keys. do you have to reprogram your keys to start the car?
silver....interesting points you make, what about our chipped keys. do you have to reprogram your keys to start the car?
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 6
From: DFW, TX
Originally Posted by versionJDM,Jan 16 2006, 10:19 PM
the j's ecu does use the knock sensor, its the only aftermarket JDM ecu that does.....to my knowledge.
silver....interesting points you make, what about our chipped keys. do you have to reprogram your keys to start the car?
silver....interesting points you make, what about our chipped keys. do you have to reprogram your keys to start the car?
Also, something to think about since the drive to L.A. is LONG for you guys (I've done it). Because Shawns dyno is portable (dynapack's) he can come to you. of course it costs more. But if you have enough people interested it, it may be worth it. Now I have no idea how much he charges for this so maybe it would be rediculous but if its not...maybe I'll save you the drive
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 838
Likes: 5
From: MI
Originally Posted by Silver9k,Jan 16 2006, 11:24 PM
my EMS is like stock driveablity...the ONLY differences in "driveability" are:
due to not as complex of an idle map as that which Honda developed the EMS can have a hard time holding idle at rpms around 700rpm. This isn't a problem as you will probably idle around 1000rpm but where it does come into play is slipping the clutch from a start. I don't think this is a problem for many, but before the EMS, a lot of the time when getting the car going from a a stop I would give it little gas and slip the clutch. For a brief period the rpms are around 700. With the EMS I had to learn how to drive over again in the fact that now I'll rev to 2000-2500 rpm when getting of the line and let the rpms come down to 1500 or so not 700. Its pretty minor and actually makes me drive it a little faster from a stop, as before I was pretty much babying it away from the lights.
the other thing is starting as you'd know if you researched EMS's the starting map is not as complex as Honda's either. This makes it take a couple cranks longer to get the engine to start. Again, not a problem, just hold the button down for an extra second. However, as I've noticed now in the cold, when trying to start it at 28 degrees F sometimes you have to hold the button down for a minute while it sputters and tells you it would rather not run, then finally comes alive. Annoying but it wont happen in warm climates and it may be telling me I'm due for an oil change as well. Also, I've had this problem on the stock ECU before as well...not as frequent at all, but there have been times in very cold temps when the car would take several cranks to start.
Everything else as far as driveabilty is better IMO, has more useable torque, and acts just like stock, only faster.
So basically you can't really expect AEM to have as complex of starting and idling maps as Honda either...honda spent much more time, and focused on the one car...AEM didn't because they can't. Their software covers several different vehicles and still works very well.
due to not as complex of an idle map as that which Honda developed the EMS can have a hard time holding idle at rpms around 700rpm. This isn't a problem as you will probably idle around 1000rpm but where it does come into play is slipping the clutch from a start. I don't think this is a problem for many, but before the EMS, a lot of the time when getting the car going from a a stop I would give it little gas and slip the clutch. For a brief period the rpms are around 700. With the EMS I had to learn how to drive over again in the fact that now I'll rev to 2000-2500 rpm when getting of the line and let the rpms come down to 1500 or so not 700. Its pretty minor and actually makes me drive it a little faster from a stop, as before I was pretty much babying it away from the lights.
the other thing is starting as you'd know if you researched EMS's the starting map is not as complex as Honda's either. This makes it take a couple cranks longer to get the engine to start. Again, not a problem, just hold the button down for an extra second. However, as I've noticed now in the cold, when trying to start it at 28 degrees F sometimes you have to hold the button down for a minute while it sputters and tells you it would rather not run, then finally comes alive. Annoying but it wont happen in warm climates and it may be telling me I'm due for an oil change as well. Also, I've had this problem on the stock ECU before as well...not as frequent at all, but there have been times in very cold temps when the car would take several cranks to start.
Everything else as far as driveabilty is better IMO, has more useable torque, and acts just like stock, only faster.
So basically you can't really expect AEM to have as complex of starting and idling maps as Honda either...honda spent much more time, and focused on the one car...AEM didn't because they can't. Their software covers several different vehicles and still works very well.
Version - The EMS doesn't have provision for our immobilizer, so it'll be fine. JDM ECU's also do not have immobilizers, so you should be fine there as well. I have heard stories of people having problems with starting their car with the Spoon ECU, so you may want to check up on that if you are curious.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,106
Likes: 2
From: PNW
Update:
Sorry guys, I am withdrawing from the NA dream.
I just returned Darton, Crower, and Supertech sponsorship offers.
To the rest of you intereted, I encourage you to shoot them an email and a formal proposal of how they can make money off of you. I hope you guys succeed.
I will be selling my S2 in about 1 year. A close friend of mine has my dream car, and we have agreed to pursue my purchase of it in exactly 1 year... So it would be foolish of me to drop that much money into the S2.
However, my car will still have:
AUT/K&N Intake
Proflow 66mm TB
Hondata Gasket
Toda Header
T1r 70r
Buddy club RS ECU w/ Vcon (AJ-R tuned)
Comptech Lightweight Flywheel, with 4.44 FG
So I will dyno with all of that. Hopefully in the 225whp range. Best of luck to all of you, and I will keep you all posted as well!!
Sorry guys, I am withdrawing from the NA dream.
I just returned Darton, Crower, and Supertech sponsorship offers.
To the rest of you intereted, I encourage you to shoot them an email and a formal proposal of how they can make money off of you. I hope you guys succeed.
I will be selling my S2 in about 1 year. A close friend of mine has my dream car, and we have agreed to pursue my purchase of it in exactly 1 year... So it would be foolish of me to drop that much money into the S2.
However, my car will still have:
AUT/K&N Intake
Proflow 66mm TB
Hondata Gasket
Toda Header
T1r 70r
Buddy club RS ECU w/ Vcon (AJ-R tuned)
Comptech Lightweight Flywheel, with 4.44 FG
So I will dyno with all of that. Hopefully in the 225whp range. Best of luck to all of you, and I will keep you all posted as well!!
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,976
Likes: 1
From: Slovakian living in Dubai
I don't have time to read thr whole deal, but as far as my experience goes, the cheapest 230whp goes like this:
AEM V2 intake
Spoon header (you want peak numbers) or J's (you are a baller)
t1R 70mm single (comes with test pipe)
APEXi VAFC2 (I made 12whp in mid range and 7 on top)
and if you want to accelerate even faster, get 4.56 gears from Rick's.
I have 2 dynos from the same day from 2 cars that make 23-25whp only with Spoon header and Amuse dual . Talking about how you can't make power on the F20C is a record I can't listen to anymore :-)
AEM V2 intake
Spoon header (you want peak numbers) or J's (you are a baller)
t1R 70mm single (comes with test pipe)
APEXi VAFC2 (I made 12whp in mid range and 7 on top)
and if you want to accelerate even faster, get 4.56 gears from Rick's.
I have 2 dynos from the same day from 2 cars that make 23-25whp only with Spoon header and Amuse dual . Talking about how you can't make power on the F20C is a record I can't listen to anymore :-)