4 page haha looks morre like 8

 

hey nate if you want, we can go around on sat and listen to different setups around town. also see what other setups they can do. I think they will be little reluctant in loosing your business after all the work they had done.

 

They are "tuning" it today. If I'm not happy after this weekend, we can make changes.

Since the sub amp isn't as important, I could also save money by doing just a Memphis D-class sub on bass and the Audison for mids/highs.

I'll see what my options are after today, and how much it'll cost me.

Let's listen to it, and other cars this weekend for comparison.

 

I'm interested in knowing why people think the sub amp isn't "important"?

Maybe it's just the old producer/DJ in me, but I've never had a piece of modern music speak to me without the lower octaves. Take that away and you take away the soul of the music. Granted there are a lot of people out there who enjoy just an acoustic guitar, but for my tastes, adding a stand up bass or a good kick drum just makes all the difference. Dance music is the same. Listening to a song on the clock radio just isn't the same.

If you install a quality sub, whether it be JL, MTX, Eclipse, etc., in a sealed enclosure, it is going to require some significant power to not only get it moving... but to keep it controlled. When the bass note hits and stops, you don't want that cone still moving. This is one reason you need good amps on a ported setup.

I see that Memphis has a number of Class-D mono subs that might work for you. I would submit to you that you make sure they are stable down to the ohms you intend to run them at, most look stable to 2ohm, and I would also submit that you select one that will give you ample power no matter what enclosure or sub you decide to install. It's very easy to wind back the gains on an amp, but if you have to run it wide open all the time to get proper volume levels, it's going to run hot and possibly fail.

In my own case, The sub I choose will probably require 300-600w of power. I will be able to deliver 1000w. I know my amps will be running at half rated power or less pretty much all the time. Lots of power in reserve for those transient peaks. Sub runs cool so I don't have to lay fans on them all the time, or have them going into protect mode.

I know other people here will disagree with me. Some will say buy as much amp as you need an no more. Keep the money in your pocket. There is some logic in that. But I am not a tinkerer. I am not a car audio "enthusiast". I like it yes, but it's not a hobby to me. I want a system in my car that I like, and I don't want to touch it again. Will that cause me to overbuy on some items? Sure. But I'd rather spend my weekends driving my car than wiring my car. Others feel differently and that's ok too. We all have hobbies, car audio just isn't one of mine.

I'll be interested in seeing what the "tuning" does today.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SCoach
I'm interested in knowing why people think the sub amp isn't "important"?

Maybe it's just the old producer/DJ in me, but I've never had a piece of modern music speak to me without the lower octaves.

 

I want it in, I want to like it and be satisfied. It's not my hobby. I just want a good system that I will enjoy for a few years down the road.

I'll see what tuning does, and then we'll make changes.

I like the idea of the Audison on mids/highs and then the Memphis (or other) amp on my sub.

I'm also thinking of switching to the Alpine HU, as the astethics and small buttons/layout of the Clarion is driving me crazy. It is not what I really like or want.

I do agree that I'd rather have more power than needed so I don't have to run the amp full out, which is probably what I'll be doing with the current set up when they are done tuning. It will also sacrifice sound quality.

I'd much rather have ample power with the Audison on the Focals, and plenty of power for the sub as well.

We'll see. This has aggravated me enough this week. Last chance to see what they can do with the current set up. I'll "test drive" it this weekend and decide what to do on Monday.

 

Nate -- we have all been in this situation of trusting a friend to do us right... sometimes it works out well, and sometimes, it backfires... it's sorta the nature of things...

Coach -- you're dead correct. based upon the T/S parameters, you can get the info for the right enclosure type... but based on all the other flubs this place has made, i'm thinking they have no clue on how to do it...

ZSAK - "oh ya one last thing, for the experts, where do you guys learn this stuff. even just the basic, what 2 ohms do, compared to 4 etc etc ."
well me, back in 1985 and before, i started off pretty much ignorant on the whole, but w/ a love of music. some experimenting and failing taught me some of the fundamentals. in '88 i put my first car stereo in, and it was alright... i actually did a lot of custom work (cutting metal and the like to get the almighty holy 6x9's into a rear deck... ) and it came out ok... i got into home audio around then, but i did other cars, made mistakes, had successes... soon afterwards i started to help run theater/performance sound and learned a great deal. after a while, i went to some courses on how to run pro-level performance sound, and began to work on that level. mixed in there, i regularly did car installs, home installs, sold home theatre, sold car stereo, made performance gear installs, learned how to design basic amps, learned speaker and enclosure design, all the while, constantly upgrading my home and car gear...
on top of all that hobby related stuff, i got my degree in Mechanical Engineering, and took a bunch of Electrical Engineering courses in the process...

in the end, i went the hard route at times, and the easy route in others... if you want to learn and 'get it', then take some time to start off on section 1 at http://www.bcae1.com and keep reading. there's some math in there, but the fact is -- he does most of it for you, and in this hobby, math is a fact of life... i always refer to that site, but in all honesty -- he's got 15+ years of my life's experience and even more, all there for the reading.

Dave - "I also dont like the fact (although beneficial in certain situations) that tehy put out the same power at any ohm."
actually the JL's do this as well. it's probably b/c they use a regulated voltage supply... in all honesty, this isn't a bad thing, and i'd love to see this become a trend in car audio. wouldn't it be nice to buy an amp that did the power it promised, no matter what speakers you connected (assuming you were in the right range)?
still, the Xeon line is really untested, period.

the idea of using the Audison for highs and a JBL or other D-class amp for the sub is a good one...


Coach -- a sub amp is important, but sound quality on a sub amp is less important... there are a lot more very strong sub amps out there that will perform very good... if you want REAL sound quality in your sub amp, you shouldn't even consider D-class amps... AB should be your path of choice, and high current AB would be better.


now, regarding the whole -- if i over power it, i'll never have to tinker w/ it... what are you guys talking about?! appropriate powering can work the same way... once you've tuned it, you're done. the only thing you're doing by overpowering is either wasting amp (if you de-tune it properly) or risking damage (if you tune it to the max).
GOOD amps will produce appropriate power at their rated levels, and will have more than sufficient dynamic headroom available for transients and excellent sound quality. you don't have to buy way overpowered amps to get there! slightly overpowered? probably not a bad idea... but that's generally a 100-125% window there... doubling the power is a waste though...

 

SCOACH....no one here can tell the differece between a brax amp, and an audiobahn pushing 600wrms a sub in a stock s2000 with stock electricals, if you think you can, your kidding yourself.

Phil, although its "nice" that JL and Xenons are the same power at any ohm....I think that kind of screws things up for setups like the s2k. Say I have a pair of perfects and I sub (wait, I do )

Now, if I want the 100.4 Xenon amp, its 100.4 @ any ohm. Meaning, its good for the highs, but the sub is being half assed. While lets say, Alphasonik or Audiobahn, will give me 100 for the fronts, but 200 or more per channel for the sub.

The idea is good, but to me, more of a hassle than godsend.

Just my .02 though.

However, are you sure the JL is like that???

I know the regulated power supply means that amp puts out the same power at ANY voltage (12-14.4).....again, looks good on paper....but bad in reality. The amp is always pushing 12v of power, while most amps push more at 14.4 This isnt a hard thing to accomplish, and there is a reason why manufacturers dont do it. Again, just my person opinion.

 

Phil,
OF COURSE appropriate powering can work that way, but it is much easier to down adjust your gains than to add more power to an existing amp. My point is go a little high, not TWICE as high as recommended, and then tune down the gains to the appropriate level.

It is better to have too much than too little, you can always take away; but to add more watts requires a whole new amp. I would never say get a 1000 watt amp for speakers rated at 100 watts. That's a waste, but to slightly overpower, that's the way to go.

 

I usually go 25%-50% overpower.

for 100W speaker....125 or 150 is perfect in my experience.