New S2000 Challenge CLASSIFICATION for 2003
Administrator
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 17,004
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From: Santa Cruz, CA, US
What I mean is
By assigning a high point value you -might- be able to run the "middle mod (mod-2)" with hooisers, so long as you are basicly stock. A couple mods, and you'll have too many points to stay in.
By assigning a high point value you -might- be able to run the "middle mod (mod-2)" with hooisers, so long as you are basicly stock. A couple mods, and you'll have too many points to stay in.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,063
Likes: 365
From: Redondo Beach
If we go to just 3 classes, might it make sense to award points to more finishers than just the top 6? Maybe adopt CART points (top 12 finishers), or devise something in between F1 and CART (top 8 or 10)?
Just want a fighting chance against you west coast ringers...
Just want a fighting chance against you west coast ringers...
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 418
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From: Los Angeles
I've posted a revised classification system (SECOND DRAFT) at the top of this thread for everyone to peruse.
Let me know what you think. Class yourself out and see where you stand.
dt
Let me know what you think. Class yourself out and see where you stand.
dt
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 15,323
Likes: 28
From: Longmont, CO
Hmm... My setup would be:
Victoracers - 50
17" Wheels - 20
Coilovers - 75 (Ouch. My stock shocks need replacement, and I think it'd be silly to do just the shocks without paying attention to springs too. I'm not an SCCA BS racer.)
Exhaust - 15
Hood - 10
X-brace - 5
Total: Unlimited 175. Hmm. Without the coilovers I'm a maxed out Modified 100. Do they really make that much of a difference? I can't see them helping my lap times by all that much. Going to Victoracers gives a considerably greater degree of advantage...
What are other people's points totals?
Victoracers - 50
17" Wheels - 20
Coilovers - 75 (Ouch. My stock shocks need replacement, and I think it'd be silly to do just the shocks without paying attention to springs too. I'm not an SCCA BS racer.)
Exhaust - 15
Hood - 10
X-brace - 5
Total: Unlimited 175. Hmm. Without the coilovers I'm a maxed out Modified 100. Do they really make that much of a difference? I can't see them helping my lap times by all that much. Going to Victoracers gives a considerably greater degree of advantage...
What are other people's points totals?
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,666
Likes: 2
From: Encinitas (San Diego), CA
Spec tires + wheels + intake + springs = 105
Is this level of modification intended to be Production? If so, then okay. Reason for asking is that I have the first three (=85 points) and the next modification for me would be either a front sway bar or springs, and as it stands this would be a choice between Modified and Production. Another way to look at it is, would the car with springs perform better than the car with the bar (I actually don't know enough yet to have an opinion; comments appreciated)? If not, maybe 20 points for wheels is a bit high since we already have 50 for tires, and 15 for wheels would allow both cars into Modified. Or springs and bar could be the same at 15
Is this level of modification intended to be Production? If so, then okay. Reason for asking is that I have the first three (=85 points) and the next modification for me would be either a front sway bar or springs, and as it stands this would be a choice between Modified and Production. Another way to look at it is, would the car with springs perform better than the car with the bar (I actually don't know enough yet to have an opinion; comments appreciated)? If not, maybe 20 points for wheels is a bit high since we already have 50 for tires, and 15 for wheels would allow both cars into Modified. Or springs and bar could be the same at 15
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 260
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From: H.B.- Center of Universe
I am at:
Intake + exhaust + Spec race tire = 80 points. Hummm.
OR, I could take off intake and exhaust and run Hoosiers = 100 points. Hummm.......keeps me in MOD class.
OR, Spec race tire + shocks/springs + intake = 140. Hummm....then I run Production. I doubt supercharged cars will be in this class
OR, Hoosiers + shocks/springs+intake+exhaust = 205. Hummm...goes to Unlimited, but then I can chase down the Supercharged guys.
My heads spins thinking about these four choices.....
-Doug
Looking for the Cheating Bastard approach
Intake + exhaust + Spec race tire = 80 points. Hummm.
OR, I could take off intake and exhaust and run Hoosiers = 100 points. Hummm.......keeps me in MOD class.
OR, Spec race tire + shocks/springs + intake = 140. Hummm....then I run Production. I doubt supercharged cars will be in this class
OR, Hoosiers + shocks/springs+intake+exhaust = 205. Hummm...goes to Unlimited, but then I can chase down the Supercharged guys.
My heads spins thinking about these four choices.....
-Doug
Looking for the Cheating Bastard approach
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,821
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From: San Diego
Hmmm, I think most of the Mod-R crowd are going to be bumped into production. Except maybe Hayashi, unless we institute a +30 for the "if you use a race suspension wizard to configure your car for each track" mod
My car as it is now:
Tires-50
Swaybar-15
Exhaust-15
80
But over the next couple weeks I'll be picking up another set of JDM 6-spokes so I don't have to street drive on race tires (20 pts.) which puts me right at 100. That's before I've saved up the dough for some new custom shocks (25), bumping me into Production w/125. This also coincides with full prep for SoloII stock class. Not that I'm whining or saying that the classing system should be based around that for autocross - I don't think us cone-dodgers were high enough in attendance to have the rules bent to suit us, we are just used to examining rules systems to eke out every last bit of potential.
...
In assigning points values to certain modifications, values must be chosen based on the full potential of the mod. For instance, 16" wheels like the JDMs or the Spoons help in that they're lighter, but not nearly as useful as something wider, like the CE-28Ns, or any number of custom wheel choices. A 275 tire works a ton better on a 9-10" wheel than it does on a 7.5" one. I suggest limiting rear tire width to 255 or 245, to limit the useful wheel options to those readily available off-the-shelf.
The same goes for any other mod - points assigned based on potential. It's got to be up to the competitor to choose the iteration of that mod that provides the most performance advantage in their overall setup. An exhaust that's no lighter and adds no HP, or a coilover set that does nothing for handling, have to be assigned the same point value as an 8lb. exhaust, or a full-race coilover setup. The alternative is a hellish scenario of assessing the value of a mod on a case-by-case basis - forget it!
So in addition to the above, my suggestions are:
*Give stock some more leeway - cat-back exhaust, x-brace. Lots of people have these mods and they don't help all that much; the freshness of one's S-02s will have more to do with performance than any of the above. This class needs to be the one that appeals to the street tire-d racer type that may have one or two little useless mods but that doesn't want to run against the guys on race tires. An alternative might be to have the Stock class, then have a very limited mod class, with a total of, say, 49 points, precluding race tires.
With that said, and the classes laid out as they are in round 2, I think the most competitive setup in each class would be:
*Stock: Alignment, pads and fluid, fresh S-02s (or a suitable sticky replacement), and an exhaust if allowed.
*Mod: Above plus 235/40-17 on 17x9" front, 275/40-17 on 17x10" rear, Kumho V700s on custom made wheels; springs with rates chosen to balance and lower the car; front air dam or big fat wing on the rear. This car would embarass everything else in its class in the corners. Would be important to have a healthy set of stock shocks with the increased spring rates.
*Production: Full race slicks on some really nutty 18" wheels; springs to try and keep the huge body lean in check; front air dam or rear wing. Most people probably won't want to buy slicks, so you could substitute with Hoosiers. Alternatives are to slap on some FI and R tires on stock wheels and have at it that way, or go with some really big (245/40fr,285/30rr) Kumhos in 18" paired with a full race coilover setup, like Dave's Motons or sfphinkter's Mugens. Optimum choice of the 3 is probably track dependent.
*Unlimited: Speed's just a question of money - how fast do you wanna go?
My car as it is now:
Tires-50
Swaybar-15
Exhaust-15
80
But over the next couple weeks I'll be picking up another set of JDM 6-spokes so I don't have to street drive on race tires (20 pts.) which puts me right at 100. That's before I've saved up the dough for some new custom shocks (25), bumping me into Production w/125. This also coincides with full prep for SoloII stock class. Not that I'm whining or saying that the classing system should be based around that for autocross - I don't think us cone-dodgers were high enough in attendance to have the rules bent to suit us, we are just used to examining rules systems to eke out every last bit of potential.
...
In assigning points values to certain modifications, values must be chosen based on the full potential of the mod. For instance, 16" wheels like the JDMs or the Spoons help in that they're lighter, but not nearly as useful as something wider, like the CE-28Ns, or any number of custom wheel choices. A 275 tire works a ton better on a 9-10" wheel than it does on a 7.5" one. I suggest limiting rear tire width to 255 or 245, to limit the useful wheel options to those readily available off-the-shelf.
The same goes for any other mod - points assigned based on potential. It's got to be up to the competitor to choose the iteration of that mod that provides the most performance advantage in their overall setup. An exhaust that's no lighter and adds no HP, or a coilover set that does nothing for handling, have to be assigned the same point value as an 8lb. exhaust, or a full-race coilover setup. The alternative is a hellish scenario of assessing the value of a mod on a case-by-case basis - forget it!
So in addition to the above, my suggestions are:
*Give stock some more leeway - cat-back exhaust, x-brace. Lots of people have these mods and they don't help all that much; the freshness of one's S-02s will have more to do with performance than any of the above. This class needs to be the one that appeals to the street tire-d racer type that may have one or two little useless mods but that doesn't want to run against the guys on race tires. An alternative might be to have the Stock class, then have a very limited mod class, with a total of, say, 49 points, precluding race tires.
With that said, and the classes laid out as they are in round 2, I think the most competitive setup in each class would be:
*Stock: Alignment, pads and fluid, fresh S-02s (or a suitable sticky replacement), and an exhaust if allowed.
*Mod: Above plus 235/40-17 on 17x9" front, 275/40-17 on 17x10" rear, Kumho V700s on custom made wheels; springs with rates chosen to balance and lower the car; front air dam or big fat wing on the rear. This car would embarass everything else in its class in the corners. Would be important to have a healthy set of stock shocks with the increased spring rates.
*Production: Full race slicks on some really nutty 18" wheels; springs to try and keep the huge body lean in check; front air dam or rear wing. Most people probably won't want to buy slicks, so you could substitute with Hoosiers. Alternatives are to slap on some FI and R tires on stock wheels and have at it that way, or go with some really big (245/40fr,285/30rr) Kumhos in 18" paired with a full race coilover setup, like Dave's Motons or sfphinkter's Mugens. Optimum choice of the 3 is probably track dependent.
*Unlimited: Speed's just a question of money - how fast do you wanna go?