S2000 STR prep resource
Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Near Philadelphia
Originally Posted by IntegraR0064' timestamp='1305653347' post='20584769
Admittedly I haven't given the rear bar much of a chance, but my AP2 feels really good and is fast with no rear bar and with the front bar dialed down significantly lower than most on here have it. Personally I don't understand why everyone here wants the crazy roll stiffnesses you get from 800-900 lb springs and huge front bar and decent sized rear bar. Of course I have to have a slightly higher ride height but I really doubt that makes much of a difference, particularly on the AP2 that I guess doesn't have the toe issue.
Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Near Philadelphia
I can't go much higher without hitting the a-arms honestly, so I was after the roll resistance to make sure I stay out of the fenders. I have 800F/600R springs, Gendron thicker hollow on full stiff, and no rear bar. I've buzzed the liners lightly that are tucked inside my rolled fenders but nothing major.
I was about .25" higher than I am now, and would hit the A-Arms on both sides at full lock (scored about a half a rotation of my brand new wheels discovering this). I lowered the car .25" to where I am now, and seem to be able to get to full lock without hitting (while moving slow, so no body roll). I wouldn't want to go much softer and have to be at a higher ride height to clear the fenders, honestly.
I was about .25" higher than I am now, and would hit the A-Arms on both sides at full lock (scored about a half a rotation of my brand new wheels discovering this). I lowered the car .25" to where I am now, and seem to be able to get to full lock without hitting (while moving slow, so no body roll). I wouldn't want to go much softer and have to be at a higher ride height to clear the fenders, honestly.
I definitely think I need to take my springs off and see what kind of suspension travel I'm getting, I've just had no time for it. Has anyone else had alignments that wouldn't stay put?
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Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Twin Cities
Originally Posted by marks_lude' timestamp='1305655088' post='20584913
I can't go much higher without hitting the a-arms honestly, so I was after the roll resistance to make sure I stay out of the fenders. I have 800F/600R springs, Gendron thicker hollow on full stiff, and no rear bar. I've buzzed the liners lightly that are tucked inside my rolled fenders but nothing major.
I was about .25" higher than I am now, and would hit the A-Arms on both sides at full lock (scored about a half a rotation of my brand new wheels discovering this). I lowered the car .25" to where I am now, and seem to be able to get to full lock without hitting (while moving slow, so no body roll). I wouldn't want to go much softer and have to be at a higher ride height to clear the fenders, honestly.
I was about .25" higher than I am now, and would hit the A-Arms on both sides at full lock (scored about a half a rotation of my brand new wheels discovering this). I lowered the car .25" to where I am now, and seem to be able to get to full lock without hitting (while moving slow, so no body roll). I wouldn't want to go much softer and have to be at a higher ride height to clear the fenders, honestly.
Tires are 255-40 RS3's, for an idea of the fender clearance I have.
I was very surprised how well the problem went away with just .25" drop from where I had originally hit the a-arm. You guys who are lower than me (Random1, Josh) probably have a ton of clearance with the angle your A-Arm is at.
That said, I never get anywhere near full lock while moving at speed, so I've never run into an issue regarding droop and a steeper upper A-Arm angle. I originally hit the wheel while slowly backing out of a parking spot.
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Joined: Jun 2009
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From: Frankfort, KY
Jon I haven't had that issue but I do have a driver side caster bolt stuck at 5.8 degrees. So I just match the pass side and leave it alone until I can cut it out and replace the lower arm this winter.
I was in the shower thinking and had a question. When I "choose" my spring rates I had to go 50lbs stiffer in the front then "ideal" natural frequency because they didn't have the 850 in stock. This through off the 15% front to rear difference I wanted. I think it made it 18% or somthing. Also my front roll stiffness bia's is about 10% higher then what I want because I'm one notch stiffer on my bar then my spread sheet says I should be and the 50lbs of spring issue.
Ideally I should/want to add 50lbs to the rear spring to get it back down to 15% and should go one notch down on my front bar. I'm just worried as to what taking 300 degrees/second away from the front is going to feel like "transition wise."
I might be getting ahead of myself because the car felt good at the last event all besides a couple runs I had a hair of push. It was in the rain and on a off camber lot. So if could be nothing. I'm going to do some testing soon and try to see if the car actually does push alittle.
Heres my question... If my stubborn self chooses I don't want to go one notch softer on the front bar and I don't add 50lbs of spring to the rear can I compensate the 50lbs of spring by going a couple clicks stiffer with high speed compression or low speed compression or both in the rear?
Basicly... Does increased compression (high or low or both) have the same effects as adding XXlbs of spring to that end of the car?
I was in the shower thinking and had a question. When I "choose" my spring rates I had to go 50lbs stiffer in the front then "ideal" natural frequency because they didn't have the 850 in stock. This through off the 15% front to rear difference I wanted. I think it made it 18% or somthing. Also my front roll stiffness bia's is about 10% higher then what I want because I'm one notch stiffer on my bar then my spread sheet says I should be and the 50lbs of spring issue.
Ideally I should/want to add 50lbs to the rear spring to get it back down to 15% and should go one notch down on my front bar. I'm just worried as to what taking 300 degrees/second away from the front is going to feel like "transition wise."
I might be getting ahead of myself because the car felt good at the last event all besides a couple runs I had a hair of push. It was in the rain and on a off camber lot. So if could be nothing. I'm going to do some testing soon and try to see if the car actually does push alittle.
Heres my question... If my stubborn self chooses I don't want to go one notch softer on the front bar and I don't add 50lbs of spring to the rear can I compensate the 50lbs of spring by going a couple clicks stiffer with high speed compression or low speed compression or both in the rear?
Basicly... Does increased compression (high or low or both) have the same effects as adding XXlbs of spring to that end of the car?
Joined: Jun 2010
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From: Near Philadelphia
It does transitionally - for example in a slalom it will be similar but in a steady state corner the shock effect would go away. The car would turn in as if it had the higher spring rate, then as it settled it would transition over to the spring rate not including the shocks. So if you had a different balance front/rear with your low speed compression compared to your springs, the car's balance would change as the suspension settles.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada
To give another data point that's way out in left field:
My setup is an AP1, 750 front, 500 rear, 1.5" Ankeny front bar at full stiff, no rear bar, 1/4" rear toe in, 0 front, -2.5 front and -2.8 rear camber. We run on a bumpy and slippery old airstrip, this setup is the closest to a 'perfect' balance I've ever experienced in any car at autocross speeds. Our courses are VERY heavy on transitions with the only sweepers being the 1st gear U-turns at either end of the lot and the occasional 'big slalom' type sweepers that use the entire air strip width.
Last year I ran 600 lb/in front springs and the car was pretty tailhappy. Changing to the 750 fronts made it a dream! A Stock-class Boxster driver that's highly competitive also noted that he runs a dramatically stiffer front bar setup than anyone else he knows of, so apparently this lot just makes cars feel more oversteery, if that's a word.
My setup is an AP1, 750 front, 500 rear, 1.5" Ankeny front bar at full stiff, no rear bar, 1/4" rear toe in, 0 front, -2.5 front and -2.8 rear camber. We run on a bumpy and slippery old airstrip, this setup is the closest to a 'perfect' balance I've ever experienced in any car at autocross speeds. Our courses are VERY heavy on transitions with the only sweepers being the 1st gear U-turns at either end of the lot and the occasional 'big slalom' type sweepers that use the entire air strip width.
Last year I ran 600 lb/in front springs and the car was pretty tailhappy. Changing to the 750 fronts made it a dream! A Stock-class Boxster driver that's highly competitive also noted that he runs a dramatically stiffer front bar setup than anyone else he knows of, so apparently this lot just makes cars feel more oversteery, if that's a word.
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Joined: Jun 2009
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From: Frankfort, KY
ok thanks Jon. I'm not saying I exactly need 50lbs of spring added to the rear but my bench racing tells me I do to be at that "magical/Ideal" 15% front to rear natural frequency. Hopefully hyperco makes a 750 spring incase I "need" it.
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Joined: Jun 2009
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From: Frankfort, KY
To give another data point that's way out in left field:
My setup is an AP1, 750 front, 500 rear, 1.5" Ankeny front bar at full stiff, no rear bar, 1/4" rear toe in, 0 front, -2.5 front and -2.8 rear camber. We run on a bumpy and slippery old airstrip, this setup is the closest to a 'perfect' balance I've ever experienced in any car at autocross speeds. Our courses are VERY heavy on transitions with the only sweepers being the 1st gear U-turns at either end of the lot and the occasional 'big slalom' type sweepers that use the entire air strip width.
Last year I ran 600 lb/in front springs and the car was pretty tailhappy. Changing to the 750 fronts made it a dream! A Stock-class Boxster driver that's highly competitive also noted that he runs a dramatically stiffer front bar setup than anyone else he knows of, so apparently this lot just makes cars feel more oversteery, if that's a word.
My setup is an AP1, 750 front, 500 rear, 1.5" Ankeny front bar at full stiff, no rear bar, 1/4" rear toe in, 0 front, -2.5 front and -2.8 rear camber. We run on a bumpy and slippery old airstrip, this setup is the closest to a 'perfect' balance I've ever experienced in any car at autocross speeds. Our courses are VERY heavy on transitions with the only sweepers being the 1st gear U-turns at either end of the lot and the occasional 'big slalom' type sweepers that use the entire air strip width.
Last year I ran 600 lb/in front springs and the car was pretty tailhappy. Changing to the 750 fronts made it a dream! A Stock-class Boxster driver that's highly competitive also noted that he runs a dramatically stiffer front bar setup than anyone else he knows of, so apparently this lot just makes cars feel more oversteery, if that's a word.
WoW, Your set-up sounds like one of our locals. Thats alot of front bias and I would think the car would be very pushy. Like everything else in STR it's all preference. The guys running stock bars would freak when they heard your running that stiff of a front.
Right now this is my set-up...
front-
900lbs springs
1.25 solid bar on 4/6 (1300 degrees/second roll rate)
camber 2.8
toe 0
shocks 4/5 lsc 3/14 hsc rebound 8/14
rear-
700lbs springs
Miata bar (135 degrees/second roll rate)
camber 2.5
toe .06 degrees in (on each side)
shocks 4/5 lsc 3/14 hsc rebound 10/14
To be "ideally balanced" the natural Frequency should be 15% higher in the front, its 18% I think. The front roll stiffness bias is over 70% front. I'd like to bring it down to 60-65%.
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Joined: Apr 2009
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What is the stiffness of the saner bar at full stiff relative to the gendron that ya'll are running? With the Saner on full stiff compared to medium and a rear bar on I was able to get on the power way earlier then with the Saner on it's medium setting.
After this weekend I did feel that increasing front camber from 2.6 to 2.8 made the car faster though. Need more testing though to verify 100%
After this weekend I did feel that increasing front camber from 2.6 to 2.8 made the car faster though. Need more testing though to verify 100%
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Joined: Jun 2009
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From: Frankfort, KY
762 don't quote me on this but after 2 min of searching I read the saner bar rates are 556, 644, 739.
Thats equal to the gendron with the 1.25 hollow section on settings 1/6 (537), 3/6 (636), and 4/6 (772). On your soft setting it's only 50 more then a stock MY00 bar. The solid bar I'm running softest setting is 909.
So yea I could see how you "like" the full stiff setting on the saner. I'm fighting back and forth with myself on even lowering my setting to 3/6 which is (1078), right now I'm at 1308 on 4/6, about double your stiff setting. Although "pants" is prolly in the 2000 range and so is a local. I'd eat fenders every day if I was on a stock bar. My car still "leans" even with 900lbs springs and the bar setting I'm at.
ignore the water in the headlight please.
Thats equal to the gendron with the 1.25 hollow section on settings 1/6 (537), 3/6 (636), and 4/6 (772). On your soft setting it's only 50 more then a stock MY00 bar. The solid bar I'm running softest setting is 909.
So yea I could see how you "like" the full stiff setting on the saner. I'm fighting back and forth with myself on even lowering my setting to 3/6 which is (1078), right now I'm at 1308 on 4/6, about double your stiff setting. Although "pants" is prolly in the 2000 range and so is a local. I'd eat fenders every day if I was on a stock bar. My car still "leans" even with 900lbs springs and the bar setting I'm at. ignore the water in the headlight please.