Yup.

I would suggest "any springs and shocks using the OEM mounting locations" unless KW really gives a seriously deep discount.

"Any swaybars using OEM mounting positions" (who cares if they are adjustable, except no adjustments allowed from inside the car)

"Any upper A-Arms using OEM mounting positions"

"Any rear toe control arm using OEM mounting positions"

Require at least a roll bar and 5/6 point harnesses.

Set a minimum weight (or maybe separate AP1 and AP2 weights) and don't worry about where people take it out from.

Set spec tires and wheels and tire sizes -- I agree that the AP1 wheels and tires ought to be those selected. RA1s are a good choice -- but don't require any particular shave. Let the drivers choose that.

Either set a spec wing or say "no wing". Same with a front splitter.

OEM diff, tranny, engine, intake, etc. Any cat-back exhaust (or just any exhaust, if you don't care about nominally keeping the cars street legal). Air pump allowed to be removed?

OEM hardtop legal (required?).

OEM windshield required (allow lexan anywhere else?)

"AP1" and "AP2" to be defined by the engine, not the chassis -- if you have an F22C you have an AP2 and you get the AP2 weight.

Either "any engine management" or "OEM engine management", but choose one or the other.

Any data acquisition system (no telemetry).

No dry sump. Any oil pan.

Stock brakes. Stock ABS. Any rotors same size as stock rotors. Any pads same size as stock pads. Any fluid. Any cooling ducts. Any dust shields.

 

If they don't do anything, why do you have them? Spec is spec.

On the other hand, it would be damn hard to inspect the engine internals. Somebody who cares could set a list of allowable engine mods (flywheel, clutch, valvetrain?) but if they start giving any advantage to those who have them, it will force everybody who wants to be competitive to get them.

 

Mike, what you're describing is some loose form of an S2000 racing series, but not a Spec series at all.

Either it's SPEC or it's not. Yes, I'm splitting hairs here but the definition of spec in the racing world is well established. If you want to attract participants to a SPEC series and sell it to them as a driver's competition and not a checkbook competition, then you create a spec series.

You have to decide the goals before you make the rules. That doesn't seem to have been done yet.

 

In my case, I've had 'em since before Speed Ventures existed and no longer have the OEM parts to revert back. And I don't claim they do nothing, but years of experience have shown us that the impact of anything other than the four items above is basically "in the noise".

If we expected 70 SpecS2K cars at every event, then I agree we'd have to be very strict with these miscellaneous things. But I suspect that 5 cars would be a gigantic field, and if we make things that strict, it'll be hard to find even one eligible car.

 

What do you mean? Are you talking about the "any coilovers" and the "any interior"? Everything else I listed was more "spec" than the original proposition.

I do agree that you guys haven't yet figured out what you are really trying to do. First step should be to decide if this is a wheel-to-wheel series or not. If it is, then you start with assuming these will be dedicated race cars. Pull the interior, install a cage, set a minimum weight, spec the engine, spec the wheels and tires, spec the aero, and go. Setting up the suspension should be part of the skill involved, not part of the spec.

If this is a time-trial event designed for street legal cars, you go in a completely different direction. In fact, in that case you could simply adopt something like SCCA's A-stock rules with just a couple of track-related additions like the spec tires and some allowable suspension changes.

 

Even though w2w would be more exciting, it also defeats the purpose of a spec class. The goal is to get the majority of the enthusiasts to participate. Adding a tow vehicle and trailer will eliminate 90% of the interested parties. Besides if you want to run a gutted trailered race car w2w, there is always Honda Cup to graduate up to.

Ideally, you get as many of the HPDE drivers to participate with ~$4-5K of modifications to a bone-stock car as the entry barrier (as described by twohoos). The issue of being 'out-spent' will always be there. There will be a few with fresh tires for every other event, better components and a crew to fix things when things break. In happens in every racing series. The key is to remember it's supposed to be fun first and competitive second.

 

I'll repeat this line for emphasis:

We'd ultimately like this to be a w2w racing series, but for the reasons Ashish pointed out so well, it simply isn't practical right now.

As a time trial series, many more will be encouraged to give it a try, and factory rollover protection should be sufficient. (I still like the idea of giving those with an aftermarket roll bar some kind of bonus to encourage more people to go this route, but I don't think it has to be mandatory in a non w2w series)

JP is of couse correct in that there shouldn't be a menu of options available, but as John pointed out, we don't want people to stress about small mods they've already done. I do agree that factory brakes and ECU should be required with no aftermarket EMS or air/fuel management allowed. (any brake line or pad is OK, but you've got to use the OEM system)

I also think that the suggestion of only allowing OEM 16's is a good one, but I'd like to hear from the AP2 guys on this one. Is it unfair of us to make you buy smaller wheels, or would you have to uy a second set for the track anyway? (In which case we're saving you $$.)

I don't want to allow any weight reduction besides removal of the passenger seat, spare etc, so I'm not sure what effect weight restrictions will have.

As far as sanctioning body...

Right now it's us, that allows us to make this into what we want it to be, not what the SCCA or NASA wants. The track days will probably be organized by SpeedVentures since they have the track connections all across the country and can help us fill dates to make it cost effective for all. That said, this will not be a SpeedVentures series, although we all may agree to get them more involved at a later date.

Eventually, the rules will become more refined. The thought with the initial nebulosity of the rules was to get as many people involved as we can. There is a very limited number of S2000 owners willing to track their cars, and we've got to start out flexible if we want to attract the maximum number of participants.

 

Thanks for making my point for me. You give everyone the same suspension, and they can set it up anyway they see fit with respect to damping, camber, etc. That's the way it's done in Spec E30, Spec Miata, Spec Racer Ford, etc.

 

I went through the rules and this is what I came up with. What do you thing?

Required modifications:

-Suspension: KWv3 +BSK free for AP1s
-Tires: Spec Tire any shave
Only 16

 

So then you've decided this isn't Spec anything, but rather S2000 Challenge under a different name?